We tackle a series of questions from listeners on this week’s episode! The questions focus on the intersection of faith, identity, and community for LGBTQ+ individuals. We discuss the challenges faced by transgender individuals in church settings, the misconceptions surrounding sin and sexuality, the experiences of agnostics in religious spaces, and the nuanced understanding of the Holy Spirit in the lives of queer individuals. We also get into grief, demons and the importance of personal agency and community in navigating these topics.

Takeaways

• No, it’s not a sin and you’re not going to hell.
• Conservative views often equate same-gender relationships with addiction.
• It’s important to find an affirming community.
• God didn’t make a mistake in creating trans individuals.
• We co-create our identities with God.
• Agnostics are welcome in many progressive churches.
• Defining God can vary greatly among individuals.
• Community and rituals can be meaningful without belief in God.
• The Holy Spirit’s role is often misunderstood in evangelicalism.
• The working of the spirit is a mystery, not a certainty. Activism can inspire students to take action and create change.
• Transcendence can be felt in everyday experiences, such as dance and community.
• The concept of demons and possession is often tied to mental health and societal issues.
• Rituals can provide comfort and connection in times of grief.
• Praying for the departed can be a personal and meaningful practice.
• Understanding the historical context of spiritual beliefs is crucial.
• Personal agency should not be undermined by the concept of demonic influence.
• Grief is a non-linear process that requires compassion and understanding.
• Community support is vital in navigating spiritual and emotional challenges.
• Rituals can help honor the memory of loved ones and facilitate healing.

Chapters

(1:04) Agnostics and Their Place in Church

(8:21) Navigating Church as a Transgender Individual

(15:57) The Role of the Holy Spirit in LGBTQ+ Lives

(26:05) Exploring the Concept of Demons and Possession

(31:28) Praying for the Departed: Grief and Rituals

Resources:

• What’s the Deal with the Pigs?
• Want to submit a question? Go to queertheology.com/listen to submit your own. 
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we’ve got a q and a episode. You all have been sending in questions through our Google Voice number, and we’re super excited to tackle some of them today. We’ve got some really great and interesting questions, and we’re just gonna take ’em one by one. And if you would like to submit your question for a future episode of the podcast, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash podcast and there will be instructions on that page with how to submit your question.

(1m 4s):
Our first question is an anonymous one from Tumblr. For anyone who is still on Tumblr, you can submit questions to us there. We, I think Tumblr is still in existence as of the recording of this episode. So this question is, can a agnostics go to church? I wrote a whole novel of a question with backstory and everything, but deleted it because that’s the crux of my question. I realized I was queer after I became agnostic. So that combo doesn’t hold much angst for me luckily. But every now and then I circle back around to religion and the thing that always stops me from engaging completely is that I am agnostic. And I don’t think that’s going to change at this point. I’ve done a lot of soul searching and a lot of research, and it doesn’t matter which religion, I just can’t believe things I don’t believe.

(1m 48s):
That wasn’t very eloquent, but I hope you know what I mean. But something’s obviously calling me back over and over. So yeah. Can agnostics go to church? I think that’s actually quite elegant, actually. Yes. I love this question. Yeah, yeah. Yes, definitely. I would say that in, in a, in many, most like progressive liberal mainline churches, the pastors and priests there were like, absolutely love for agnostics to come. It’s not just me saying this. I have talked to many Agnos and many pastors and priests at, at churches that are like, yeah, sure, come on. There’s like lots of reasons to come to church.

(2m 28s):
Like if you believe in the mission of Jesus, the work that we’re doing here at the community that we’re forming, the rituals speak to you. Like, come on in. You don’t Have to. And and honestly, a lot of those pastors and priests might also be agnostics. Yep. So that’s just know that, Yes. I would also, also also gonna say like a lot of pastors and priests are potentially agnostic, And I think this really gets down to like, how do you define God? And so like if God is a man in the sky that like used magic spells and conjured up miracles to create, to form the world in his hand and intervenes in the affairs of the world, then like many, many, many Christians, Jews, pastors, priests, rabbis, imams, like don’t believe in that God.

(3m 21s):
But many people still say that they believe in God. But it’s something else. I, for probably the entire time that we’ve done Queer Theology, I’ve been like, I don’t know if I believe in God. And so for a while there was like, can I still call myself a Christian? And, and Shannon, you’ve always been like, yeah, man, like you, like believe in the ministry of Jesus and like you’re down for a Christian community. And so like, come on. I’m like, good enough for me. Obviously at some point I converted to Judaism And I think like, actually like, like when I was still a Christian, it kind of felt important to be like, well, I don’t believe in the conservative Christian version of God, but there’s like a different version of God that I do believe in.

(4m 5s):
And it’s definitely not anything supernatural, but it’s like, I don’t know, when you like hold a baby in your arms and it cries like it’s just sound waves reverberating through the air and then into your eardrum. Like, and also that it’s like something more, right? When you like have a really like special meal with your like queer chosen family, there’s like something sort of like sizzling in the air. There. There are things that we have been told are impossible, and then a group of people who are willing to sacrifice everything for it come together believing in the impossible. And then somehow the what what seems to be impossible becomes impossible, right?

(4m 49s):
And so like that sort of like whatever that is, I like people call that, some people call that God. And so like, I think like you get to define what God is and you can still be agnostic or even an atheist and believe in the power of community or unpacking and diving into religion or seeing what you can learn or the rituals or what whatever it might be for you. And like you don’t, you don’t have to believe in God to do that. And also a lot of the people who say they believe in God, like there’s so many different definitions of God that is important to ask. Like, well, what does that, what does God mean to you? Because you might be closer in belief to a lot of the people at these churches than you realize.

(5m 33s):
Yeah. I, I echo all of that. I, I think that too, like just also, you know, kind of being clear with folks about who you are, which doesn’t mean you need to like walk in announcing you and agnostic, right. And I believe that. Yeah. But like, you know, being clear about with folks there about like what is it that you are invested in and, and how you want to engage and why you’re, why you’re there. And I think I would also add that finding the right community is gonna be really important too, because like if you’re in a community that is really, really big on proselytization, like you are just gonna be miserable, right?

(6m 15s):
Yeah. And they’re gonna be, yeah, they’re gonna see you as a project and they’re gonna try and save you. So like, you’re gonna wanna be in a, in a congregation that like allows for a diversity of belief and that is about the practice of creating community. So I just encourage you to, to kind of look for that as you’re joining a place or, or even attending, because that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna make a difference between whether you have a good experience or a bad experience. But I, I think that there’s something in your question too about like, I’m feeling drawn to this. Just listen to that, right? Like, and, and again, like whatever that thing is that’s drawing you, whether that is community, whether it’s ritual, whether it’s justice, whether it’s whatever, there’s something there.

(7m 4s):
And so listening to that and finding out the places that you can live that out are, are gonna be important. And you might find that it’s actually not a church that you’re looking for, that you are looking for, I don’t know, a queer game night or a food not bombs community, right? But, but you might find that out by spending some time in churches and figuring out where to plug in and and how to connect with people. Yeah. And I would just offer at most churches the pastor is, would be like down for, maybe, I shouldn’t say most, but at many churches, probably most the pastor or a pastor at the church would be like down for having, setting up a meeting at some point, like for 30 minutes or a coffee or something.

(7m 48s):
So like if that doesn’t intimidate you, if that would feel good, like just to sort of like talk it out and be like sort of, here’s where I am, this is what I’m looking for. Like if it’s a smaller church, they’re probably like hungry for new members and so they would be like, excited to have you. And if they’re a bigger church, there’s a good chance that they have like multiple pastors or staff to like, do just this. And so like at any size church, you’ll probably be able to find someone to like talk to about this, to sort of get a sense of like what do they feel about your agnosticism. So our next question is from Darby. I am a transgender male who went back to church after my wife’s sister died back last March.

(8m 28s):
I believe in God and heaven and felt really good going to church until the beginning of this month when one of the pastors stated We need to help and save our family members and friends, those who are addicted to alcohol, pornography, and same sex relationships. It really made me uncomfortable. I didn’t even listen to the rest of the service and haven’t been back to church but want to go. I feel people judging who I am is definitely a sin to, and why can people be ugly toward us when all we do is love for love? Is being gay or trans a sin? Will I not go to heaven for being me? When people say God made you in his image and didn’t make a mistake making me, it really confuses me and he response to help me. I would appreciate it. Absolutely. Darby, we feel you.

(9m 8s):
Yeah. This is a hard one, right? Like it’s, it’s so hard when you’re in a space where you’re hearing aff affirming messages. So first of all, no, it’s not a sin and you’re not going to hell. So that’s, you can just take that off the plate. Yep, yep, yep. Right off the bat. And, and you know, I think that anytime someone is talking about being addicted to pornography, I always, that always raises red flags for me. I I really think that conservative folks are like obsessed with this idea of being addicted to everything and like clarifying very natural and normal sexual expression as addiction.

(9m 52s):
And so like that, that in your question raises red flags to me for sure. And of course like equating same gender relationships with other addictions is also like this person is, has some bad theology and would really encourage you to like seek out a, a new church. Yeah. There’s, there’s multiple questions sort of all wrapped up in this question, right? There’s this one question of I wanna go to church, but this church like says that it’s a sin to be gay and trans. Like, so I have been back, but I want to go back what, like what I do about that there’s like the question that then that church is bringing up in, in Darby, which is like, is it a sin to be queer?

(10m 38s):
And then there’s also this question of like, isn’t it a sin for you to judge people? Like what’s, like, what’s the deal with them judging me? And then also this other, this final question which is like related to the sin question, but feels different, which is like, did God make a mistake when making trans people? And I know that that’s a question that you’ve addressed multiple times, but so like it feels maybe like worth it to, to tease apart those Yeah, I mean when it comes to the, is it a sin question, right? Like I I I echo yha, no definitively no, this is a question that has been asked and answered for decades. And so like, I would encourage you, there’s a, there’s a lot of great scholarship out there if you are still really wrestling with that, that’s been written about this.

(11m 21s):
And also one of the things that I have found is that getting into this sort of like back and forth arguing about the academics and the translations and this word and the theology and the hermeneutics and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like can be really difficult and unsatisfying. Not because there’s anything wrong with queerness or our arguments or our positions, but just that like conservative Christianity has like so warped the conversation around not just this issue but like, like the bible in general and theology in general, that like they’ve kind of rigged the rules to the game and then are asking you to play this like rigged version of the game with them.

(12m 3s):
And so trying to like answer the question dead on of like, is it a sin by looking at their arguments on their terms is gonna be like crazy making. And so I would encourage you if you are a person who like cares about church community, the Bible, faith, et cetera, that it’s really important to find an affirming community, not so that they’ll tell you what you want to hear, but because like they have different tools for reading the Bible and different ideas about theology and who God is and how God acts in the world. And it’s really like a holistic thing that you need to sort of like unpack. It’s not just like, you can’t just sort of like trade one answer for another answer.

(12m 45s):
It’s about reading the Bible with fresh eyes and re-imagining theology outside of this sort of like vindictive, punitive, small-minded, judgmental god. And so like that takes a bit of work, that’s work that we do inside of sanctuary collective and spiritual study hall. So like if you’re interested in coming alongside some LGBTQ folks from across the country, we love to have you Queer Theology dot com slash community, but there’s also lots of books and resources written about that. We have some, a few listed on our website. You can go to Queer Theology dot com slash Is it okay? And there are be some, some resources there for you. And then what about this? Like, is it a, like did God make a mistake, Shay if that feels like an important question to, to Tackle?

(13m 27s):
Yeah. I, this is such a complicated question, right? Because I I, my initial response is like, no, God didn’t make a mistake. And also I know for some folks their transness doesn’t necessarily feel like something that they are excited or happy about or that it’s a gift, right? Like I, I now have come to feel that my trans identity is a real gift that, like me being trans was God’s design and intention. And that I learned a lot through that process. And like that is really beautiful and helpful for me. But I know for other folks who have experienced right, a lot of dysphoria who really struggle with their trans identity, it, it feels like saying that God made them that way is like some kind of punitive or punishing thing and right.

(14m 17s):
So like I wanna tread carefully in that space. And so like if, if that’s how you’re feeling about your trans identity, like it can be really tricky to hear that like God intended you for, for you to be trans, right? But I do think that there is something for me in like, I learned a lot through the process of transitioning about myself, about what it means to be a good man about what it means to be a good human in ways that I don’t think I would have learned if I were cis and, and had been born a cis guy. Like I, I’ve often shared that had I been born a cis dude, like I would be an asshole even more than I already am because like I was born in a, in a tradition, right?

(15m 2s):
That trained cis guys in a different way and like without having to kind of question my own masculinity, like I, I had those giftings that would have led me down that path of, of being kind of an asshole. And so like, I’m grateful for my trans experience, but I, so all of that to say that like, I think that this is a really complex and complicated question and where I land on it is that like we get to have a say in co-creating our identities with God. And I think lots of folks have have talked about that over the years and like have experienced that. And so it, it is you, you transitioning or choosing to transition whenever that looks like for you is not you going against God des God’s design.

(15m 54s):
And I think that for me is the bottom line. Amen. Our next question is from Tam and Tam asked, hi, I would like to know if you all believe in The Holy Spirit. If so, how does he work in the life of someone who identifies as an LGBTQ plus person? Yeah, It’s, it’s so interesting because we get lots of messages from lots of different types of people. And so when messages are like super short like this, it’s always hard to like parse out like who the, who the asker is and what sort of assumptions they might be bringing to the question and what they’re getting at. And are there any sort of unasked questions or like agendas.

(16m 39s):
And so like for instance, with this question, it could be asked from someone who is a conservative anti LGBT person who is trying to like look for a gotcha moment for us to trap us into saying something wrong about The Holy Spirit. Or it could be someone who is queer and like is wanting to know how The Holy Spirit could function in their life, or it could be from some other thing. And so given the lack of information, we’re just gonna take this at face value as a good faith question. If this was you or if you have a similar question, you can always like write in, in with more details, but we’re gonna just sort of do the best that we can with the limited information that we have. So Shay what would you, how would you answer this?

(17m 20s):
Yeah, it, so growing up, right, The Holy Spirit was a big deal, right? It was very much a, a part of my evangelical world and, and worldview and like The Holy Spirit was God’s indwelling in each believer to base honestly often mostly to convict us of sin, right? I think The Holy Spirit was supposed to do a little bit more than that, but like in our conception it Was stick back. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And so, and so I don’t believe in The Holy Spirit in that way anymore.

(17m 60s):
So I’ll say that to start, I do think that there is, you know, back to back to the last question of like, it depends on how you define God, right? For me, there is a spirit in the world, something bigger than me. I, I believe in that And I do believe that that spirit is working in the world in ways that I might not be able to understand or see. And I also believe that like part of what we often call The Holy Spirit or what, especially in evangelicalism we call The Holy Spirit, right?

(18m 40s):
Which was like conviction of sin or nudges to do certain things are also like our own intuition and the the ways that God has wired us to like seek community and to want justice in the world. And so when I think about like how God works, where the spirit works in queer and trans folks, like, part of that for me was like, this spirit helped me understand that I was trans and have the courage to pursue, pursue transition. Like the spirit calls me toward community and toward justice and toward working for the least of these, the spirit, you know, sometimes does let me know that I’m being a jerk and that I should maybe apologize to someone and like show up in a different way in community.

(19m 32s):
And so I, I do believe in that, but I don’t necessarily believe that it’s like a unique to Christians or BI don’t know, like the cartoon of the little like angel on your shoulder right. Telling you things, right? And, and so I, so I think that this question has a lot of nuance And I think there’s also to me of like, part of what I think evangelicalism does wrong is it creates a sense of certainty around things that are actually supposed to be quite mysterious. And I, and for me, like the working of the spirit and what the spirit is, is absolutely a mystery.

(20m 16s):
And like I’m not afraid of that And I don’t feel the need necessarily to define it while also like living in it. I don’t know that, I don’t know if that, that doesn’t feel very eloquent, but that’s kind of like my thoughts on The Holy Spirit at this moment. Yeah, I think for me, similar to our first question, it’s like, well it depends on how you define all of these terms. And I like, similar to you, I think that I used to have this idea of The Holy Spirit as like both a voice, I guess like in my head, mind, spirit, soul, that like, since I had accepted Jesus, like was talking to me in some way to like convict me of my sin or tell me what job I should take or this is the girl that you should date or whatever.

(21m 3s):
And then like, maybe also somehow there was this sort of like war like, like supernatural war between like The Holy Spirit and like Demons. So like maybe somehow like The Holy Spirit was like, I don’t know, moving and making things happen out in the world also. And so like I like don’t believe in that. And so then I for a while was like, okay, I’m like, I don’t believe in any of that. And then I did this activism where I was traveling across the country doing direct act, non-violent, direct action activism at schools that discriminated against queer people. We were stopping in Ellendale, North Dakota at, it was an Assemblies of God school, I think it was, it doesn’t matter, yellow doesn’t matter.

(21m 48s):
This school, this Assemblies of God school in North Dakota and like the day before we got there, the police chief of this like small town like came to our hotel and was like, we gotta talk like the towns folk have heard you’re coming. And we got wind of a plan that some guys are gonna like bring their farm combines and literally run you off the road with their combines. So we need to make a plan. So that’s like the city erected these like concrete barriers kind of like blocking off the road where we were gonna be so that the combines couldn’t get to us so we could still be like protesting outside of the school. And then we heard that there was this Christian knitting group in South Dakota called Hook and for Jesus, and they also heard we were coming.

(22m 37s):
And so for like months leading up to our visit, they were like knitting prayer shawls each in a different color of the original pride rainbow. And as they were knitting them, they like prayed over them and thought about us and wished us well and infused all of their good vibes into it. And then they drove up from South La Dakota, North Dakota, and they gave us all these, these like six or seven prayer shawls. And so different people took them. One of them was like a Jewish guy, one of them was a, an atheist person. And we sort of like wrapped ourselves in these prayer shawls and stood at the chicken wire fence that the school had erected to sort of like demarcate the property line.

(23m 19s):
And like a, a van full of guys did end up coming and they got to the barrier, they realized they couldn’t get through. They like, they ended up leaving. And I, I remember like some just being like, oh, something is sort of like moving here and three women in our group three because like, this is a, a sacred number on the trinity. And they, they took these prayer shawls and that like, it’s important to be women because the Assemblies of God is, is like deeply sexist. And so they like brought these prayer shawls onto the campus and laid them out on the center lawn and then got arrested because they weren’t supposed to be there. And like you, I was like, oh, I can like see The Holy Spirit descending onto this campus and like, I couldn’t actually see it, right?

(24m 6s):
But like there was this like thing that was happening and the administrators and the students watching and the police and like the protestors and like months later we heard from students and parents of like various different schools along the way that were like, I saw what happened to you all. I transferred schools. I, like, I started talking to my administration, we started an underground gsa, like it stirred something up. And I remember thinking like, oh, maybe when the writers of the Bible said like The Holy Spirit dis descended upon Jesus like a dove there like wasn’t actually a Casper the ghost thing that you could see with your eyes that like literally floated down from heaven and at got onto Jesus, right?

(24m 54s):
Maybe the writers of the Bible had a same experience as me where like something big and epic happened that like seemed to be larger than the sum of its parts. And they like were grasping at language to describe what was happening. And the only thing that they could do was sort of like rise to this metaphor in the same way that it was like the flames of Pentecost were on this campus or this, or The Holy Spirit had come down upon us that I felt like I could see it, right? But I couldn’t actually see it. And so like, I think there’s a, like that whatever, like that thing is, I see it on the dance floor at queer clubs when I’m like on the sidelines getting a drink of water, like looking out at my friends dancing and kissing and hugging and making out and grinding.

(25m 38s):
It’s like something is moving here that is transcendent and sacred. And so like I think people throughout the ages have heard have called that still small voice that like nus like nudging of the conscious that sort of like energy in a room or a space or a protest or a revolution like that is The Holy Spirit moving. And so like hell yeah, I believe in that. Amen. Okay, so our next question is from Destiny. And Destiny recorded an audio, so we’re gonna listen to that now. Okay, so I remember one of you in previous episodes giving a new context for hell and hell isn’t what we think of it as today.

(26m 24s):
But my question is what then do you do with that, with the concept of Demons? I’m talking about like the whole possession knowledge. I dunno, I’m just curious what your thoughts are around that. Thanks. Okay, so question about Demons and possession. So I full caveat, I am obsessed with exorcism movies. My, one of my favorite book series is the Merely Watkins series, which is by Phil Rickman, which is about a episcopal priest in Wales who is also the diocesan exorcist.

(27m 8s):
Like I love this shit. And also I don’t actually believe in any of it. And so it feels like, it feels like an important distinction of like, you can enjoy paranormal shows, exorcism movies, like scary creepy things. Like if that’s your jam, like I don’t think that there’s anything necessarily wrong with that. And also I, I think that the idea of of Demons and possession is just really complicated and that probably like when, when it comes to talking about scripture, right? That I think probably in almost every passage that we have about Demons, there are like two things happening.

(27m 53s):
One is either someone is having a mental health crisis in a time when like mental health crises weren’t a thing or like we didn’t know how to categorize them or talk about them or write about them. And so I think think that that is like one thing or the idea of possession is being used as an analogy, an allegory for something political. Che Meyers in his book Binding the Strong Man talks about this a lot. We talked about it a lot when we did our, our our long series on the gospel of Mark.

(28m 34s):
So if you wanna like dive really deeply into some of the things about possession, we, we talked about it in that series, but like it often folks are talking about possession as living under empire, right? And they’re using that language as a way to talk about it subversively. And so I, I think that that is is important. That’s s episode, that’s episode 4 28 and it’s titled What’s the Deal with the Pigs Mark Week two if you’re looking for it right. Put a link in the show notes to this episode. Yeah. But yeah, I mean I I think that like there are things in the world that we can’t explain and that people sometimes have experiences that, that feel bigger than than them.

(29m 22s):
And like I, so I don’t wanna necessarily discount all of that out of hand, but I think like we have to be really careful when we’re talking about things like this because I think that like the idea of people, people being demon possessed is just really, really dicey and has been used to like, cause a lot of harm to people, especially marginalized people. And so like I think we just gotta be, we gotta be careful on that front. Yeah, I would, everything that you said so eloquently, I don’t have much to add other than to echo to, to sort of be mindful that you’re, that you’re not using or that other people aren’t using Demons and demon possession to dehumanize other people to remove their agency, to remove your agency.

(30m 12s):
It think it can also be like a way that folks let themselves off the hook, right? Like the devil got to me, right? It wasn’t me, it was the devil or a demon. And so like, it’s important that you take personal responsibility for whatever the things are that you did or that if like people are being mean to you, they, and that they try to use Demons or being possessed or the devil got to them as an excuse or justification for it. Like that’s, I don’t know if that feels like BS to me. And So just to to to be mindful of like your own, the importance of your own agency in the midst of all of this. But if it, it’s if those like, so like all of that, like, and also, I don’t know, given everything that’s going on in the world right now with like the Trump administration and Elon Musk and all that, like it does, it does sort of feel like there’s this sort of like battle of like powers and principalities playing out right now.

(31m 5s):
And so like if that sort of like language is like meaningful to you, cool, tap into that. But just like make sure that you like know how it’s being used and how you’re defining all the terms and that it’s, that it’s like moving you somewhere and not sort of like disconnecting you from your intuition, from your agency, from your wisdom. Alright, and we’ve got one more question. This is another one from Destiny and also we’re gonna listen to it now. What do you all think about the Divine Mercy prayer for context? I pray the Chapel of Divine Mercy. It what first used to me to pray for my dad because I was afraid he wouldn’t be in heaven.

(31m 45s):
And it was like my granny way of consoling me, but now it just kind of fell into a thing I do to commemorate a day when I’m grieving someone. My dad dealt with an opioid addiction And I was back in a lot more scared for his soul than I am now. All right, so Brian, what do you, what do you think about this divine mercy prayer and praying for praying in Grief and praying for people who have departed? I love it. The first thing that comes to me is just like, it’s really lovely that you found something that is like meaningful for you to help you move through your Grief.

(32m 32s):
And so like, if that’s working for you, like yes, pay attention to that. Shannon And I are both big proponents of virtual for all sorts of aspects of our lives. And like this is an example of a ritual. We have more information about virtuals and how you can build your own inside of spiritual study hall. Again, that’s Queer Theology dot com slash community to find out more information. But I, and also I’m just sort of struck that like, this is a thing that lots of traditions have like figured out that like Grief, like death is enormous and Grief is hard and having some things to help move you through that, it is powerful.

(33m 14s):
It reminds me of Judaism, we say the mourner’s Scottish for a year after a person dies traditionally every single day for a year after a person dies, and then every year on the anniversary of their death. And like, I think that probably thousands of years ago, and maybe still today amongst like some orthodox and super super, super religious Jews, there’s this sense that like, you ha it’s, it’s an the obligation of their survivors to pray the mors Kaddish on behalf of the deceased person so as to like ensure that they get to heaven. Jews, most Jews these days like don’t really believe in heaven in this, in that sort of like way anymore.

(33m 56s):
And certainly don’t believe that. Like if no one prays for you, you’re not gonna get to, to get into heaven. I, And I think like many Jews now recognize that like it’s mostly for us, like we, we do this thing to help us move through this process and also as a way to honor these people and to keep their memory alive. And so like you’re also like not alone in like being like afraid of the, the FTA that your dad’s soul, right? And wanting to do something, to pray a prayer on this side of death to help your dad out. That’s a beautiful impulse. I think the message that I would give is that like your dad is like, okay, and you don’t have to worry that your prayers will get him into heaven or that your prayers will keep him out of heaven or that like he didn’t get into heaven because it’s something that he did.

(34m 47s):
I just really don’t think that that’s the way, like heaven and hell works. And also like if this is something that is like honoring of your father and meaningful to you, then like that’s a beau I think it’s a beautiful practice. And I say mourner’s, Kaddish for my, my best friend who is sort of like the heart of our chosen family. I, I view him as a sibling. It’s like every year in the anniversary of his death, I say kadish for him because like, ’cause like, we need, we need tools like this. And so like, absolutely. It’s beautiful. Yeah, I I fully agree with all of that. I, I remember, I think it was Marcus Bork who said something like, you know, I, I don’t know what happens after we die, but I trust that the love that held us in life continues to hold us after, after death.

(35m 28s):
Mm. And and that to me, I, I used to really think that like you couldn’t pray for those who departed. But there, there was also Madeline Engel, I think had had this quote where she was talked about, she’s like, I don’t stop loving someone after they die. So like, of course I’m going to continue to pray for them because like I continue to still love them. And I think that was really helpful for me in, in realizing that, again, like, it, it feels like it’s mostly for me, right? Like it’s, I am, I am I am praying for this person that I love who isn’t here any longer And I don’t necessarily know that it’s doing anything for them, but I definitely know that it’s doing something for me and it’s connecting me and reminding me of them and the love that I had for them and the love that they had for me when they were still alive.

(36m 20s):
And like, I think that that’s a really beautiful thing. And I think whatever helps us to move through Grief is really important, right? Grief is a tricky, tricky beast and it, it’s not linear and it’s not clean and it’s not any of those things. And so like rituals can help ground us in that. And like Brian said, you know, I, I think that, I think that we don’t have to do it out of a sense of anxiety that if we do it wrong or we don’t pray it enough or we whatever, that this person won’t be cared for. Like, I think that we have to let, we have to let go of that kind of pressure and anxiety.

(37m 1s):
But this sense of using prayer as a connective tool, as a way to move through Grief as a, a reminder of love and connection, I think that that’s a beautiful and healthy and really powerful thing. And for you, destiny, if you’re worried that your dad is in hell, or if any, to anyone listening your life, if, if you’re worried that someone who has died has like maybe gone to hell or that you might go to hell, or that if they were to die, they would go to hell. That is a really terrifying thought and like, understandably, understandably, super worrisome. And so we have an episode as part of our scary Things you might have learned in Church series all about like, will you end up in hell? And so it might be helpful to sort of revisit that topic. That’s episode number 4 26 and the title is Scary Things.

(37m 42s):
Will You End Up in Hell if you wanna sort of tackle this topic of hell and people ending up there, head on On. All right. And just as a reminder, if you have a question that you want us to answer on the podcast, go to Queer Theology dot com slash podcast. There are a couple of different ways that you can submit questions, you can submit them in writing or through a a voice note. We would love to tackle your question on an upcoming episode. And until then, we will see you next time. See you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com.

(38m 23s):
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