Resources:

• Listen to the next episodes in the series and join the Queer Bible Study at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post Can You Fall Out of God’s Favor? appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

Listen to the next episodes in the series and join the Queer Bible Study at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post All Are Gathered In: Isaiah 56:1, 6-8 & Romans 11:1-2a, 29-32 appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Listen to the next episodes in the series and join the Queer Bible Study at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post Everyone Wants a Village… but Nobody Wants to be the Villager appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Listen to the next episodes in the series and join the Queer Bible Study at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post Finding Eternal Life Now: Mark 10:17-31 appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

Listen to the next episodes in the series and join the Queer Bible Study at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post Queer Bible Study: Colossians 1:1–2 appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post How Easter Inspires Us To Work For The Reconciliation of All Things appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Hear more of this conversation at Permission to Desire podcast
• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post Searching for Divine Approval Through Sex with Jonah Wheeler (@ShowOffJonah) appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Operation Lifeboat https://www.translifeboat.org/ 
• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post When Safety is at Stake: Organizing in a Time of Crisis with Samantha Boucher appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• If you want to keep up on new episodes of Permission to Desire, you find the links to subscribe in your favorite podcast player here: https://pod.link/1876076895 
• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post Pleasure is Political appeared first on Queer Theology.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Steven Law’s Journey

05:37 Transition from Preaching to Literature

11:00 The Impact of GLBTQ Experiences on Theology

16:30 Bob’s Story: A Journey of Faith and Identity

27:14 The Search for Meaning in the Aftermath of War

27:51 Faith and Judgment: A Personal Struggle

33:13 The Journey to Acceptance and Ministry

44:53 Moral Development and Personal Conviction

50:40 Love, Loss, and Legacy

Resources:

• The Story of Bob by Steven C. Law

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post The Story of Bob: an Interview with Steven C. Law appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post When Jesus Came Out – Queering the Transfiguration appeared first on Queer Theology.

Fr. Shay’s Must-Read List:

• Black Liturgies by Cole Arthur Riley
• Liturgies from Below by Claudio Carvalhaes
• The Divine Hours by Phyllis Tickle
• What Is the Bible? by Rob Bell
• A Black Theology of Liberation by James Cone
• Trans-Gendered: Theology, Ministry, and Communities of Faith by Justin Tanis
• Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology by Patrick S. Cheng
• Radical Reinvention by Kaya Oakes
• Take This Bread by Sara Miles
• Binding the Strong Man by Ched Myers
• The New Interpreter’s Bible Commentary
• The Jewish Annotated New Testament

Resources:

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

The post Bible Nerd Starter Pack appeared first on Queer Theology.

Signup at queertheology.com/lent

The post Queering Lent appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• We have a moral and religious obligation to care for one another.
• Moral and ethical obligations should align with religious beliefs.
• The prophets were angry about the disconnect between ritual and ethical behavior.
• Every human being deserves dignity and respect.
• Engagement with ancient texts can lead to personal transformation.
• The Torah serves as a guide for creating a just society.
• Collective liberation is essential for progress.
• Finding one’s identity involves exploration and community engagement.
• Life itself is a sacred text worthy of investigation.
• Solidarity across differences is crucial in today’s world.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Life as a Sacred Text

04:19 Moral and Religious Obligations

08:12 Engaging with Ancient Texts

15:14 The Journey Through Torah

20:39 Torah as Liberation

23:54 Activism and Ancient Wisdom

33:56 Collective Liberation and Solidarity

35:50 Finding One’s Identity

39:15 Life as a Sacred Text

Resources:

• https://www.lifeisasacredtext.com/
• Learn more about Rabbi Ruttenberg at https://danyaruttenberg.net/ 
• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Torah as Liberation with Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• The concept of original sin has shaped many religious teachings.
• Traditional narratives often emphasize humanity’s flaws over its potential for goodness.
• Agency is crucial; waiting for salvation can lead to passivity.
• Shifting perspectives can empower individuals and communities.
• Stories we tell ourselves influence our understanding of the world.
• Recognizing inherent goodness can change how we view ourselves and others.
• Accountability is important, but so is recognizing humanity in all people.
• Political narratives can mirror religious ones in their impact on agency.
• Interrogating historical narratives is essential for progress.
• A new story can lead to a better future for all.

Chapters

00:00 Exploring Genesis: The Foundation of Faith

08:27 Agency and Salvation: A Shift in Perspective

11:44 From Original Sin to Original Blessing

18:11 The Power of Ritual and Community

25:15 Reimagining Stories: The Path to a Better Future

Resources:

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

3 (32s):
Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’re gonna kind of talk about Genesis one through three, but obviously that is a, that is a large swath of scripture, so we are not gonna read all of it, but I’ve been thinking a lot about how I grew up being taught kind of the purpose of, of Christianity, right? And, and how so much of it was rooted in the beginning of Genesis, and specifically in the idea of like the fall and original sin, right? This, this idea that everything was good and then humans screwed it up because, you know, we did bad things.

3 (1m 15s):
And like that is why everything else happened after that. Like, that’s why we need Jesus. And, and there’s this sense that basically all of human history begins with the fall. And, and that really shapes then how, how faith plays out, how religion plays out and how church plays out. And, and so this idea, I feel like we spent a lot of time in my church growing up talking about Adam and Eve and the apple in the garden, right? The quote unquote fall and, and the entrance of sin into the world. I’m, I’m curious for you, Brian, like what, did you have a similar experience with these first couple Chapters of Genesis?

3 (2m 2s):
Or like how, what was the, the vibe in your growing up?

1 (2m 5s):
Oh, yeah. I definitely grew up believing that Adam and Eve were like real people and that like everything was perfect. There was no death. They lived in harmony with God. And like had they not fucked up, had they not sinned, like all humanity would’ve been able to live in the garden of Beeden in paradise for forever, and also like a guest be immortal and that they disobeyed God. And in doing so, they sort of like cursed all of humanity for the rest of time. And so like, not only were we separated from God, like, was I Brian separated from God because I had sinned in my life, but also it was like literally an impossible for anyone ever to not be separated from God.

1 (2m 54s):
Because like from the moment we were born, we had where there was like some original Sid already in our nature that like a would sort of like force us to mess up and to go against God over the course of our lives repeatedly, that we would like never be able to be perfect. But even like if we somehow like, but it didn’t even matter because even from like the very first moment that we were alive, we were, there was already some sort of like separation, just like at our first crying breath, which is like kind of weird and morbid and, and ungenerous And I don’t love. But at the time I was just like, oh, yeah, that’s how it’s, and it wasn’t until college that I started to, like, when I started, started studying religion, and this, this passage is actually like one of, was we, we looked at this at the Croatian story in both Genesis and as told in different peop Christian books in the New Testament and in the Quran.

1 (3m 48s):
And that was when I started to realize like, oh, maybe there’s a different way of understanding these, these stories.

3 (3m 54s):
Yeah. It’s so interesting. As you were just talking about, you know, original sin being a part of us from the first breath that we take, it reminded me of all of the like really, really terrible parenting things that come out of evangelical Christianity, like focus on the family and all of that, which is like, you need to punish your infant because your infant is trying to manipulate you by crying. Oh,

1 (4m 21s):
Yeah.

3 (4m 22s):
Right. Like from the very beginning. And if you’re, you know, you need to, there was this thing called blanket training of like, you need to put your baby on a blanket and when they crawl off of it, like spank them for getting off of the blanket because like that is them trying to exert their will. Not like a toddler being curious. Curious. Right. Or like, yeah. Rolling. And so I think that like this idea that we are fundamentally flawed and particularly that it goes back not just to Adam and Eve, but like, let’s be real, the evangelicals are blaming all that shit on Eve Sure. That it goes back to like women, right.

3 (5m 3s):
Getting out of their quote unquote place. It absolutely shapes then how the rest of theology plays out and, and how like our ideas about humanity and the world play out. Because I, I, I think that what, what I was struck by as you were talking, it’s like we do have this sense of everything was perfect and everything was, was paradise in the Garden. And yet, like we never start there. We always start with the the, we messed it up part, right? There’s this sense of like, oh, sure, like paradise.

3 (5m 44s):
Yeah, yeah, whatever. But like, it was, it was like we were destined to mess up even when we weren’t destined to mess up. And I think that that’s such an interesting take. And I, And I think that that shows how prevalent the evangelical reading of scripture has become, even within progressive spaces, right? Like that, that we, we haven’t often done the work to really unpack all of it right. To, to figure out where it’s coming from and how it, how it influences everything else.

1 (6m 21s):
Yeah. I’m, I mean, so like one of the things that was fascinating for me was that the way, like that how, how it metaphor and description like shapes our understanding of things. And so like into Genesis, right? Like the phrase original sin is like not there right into Genesis. There’s like into Genesis, kind of like the serpent was first of all into Genesis, the serpent is not necessarily the devil it into Genesis, the ser was kind of right. Like they ate and they like didn’t die.

1 (7m 1s):
And so it’s like that like gets like added in later on a little bit in Judaism, certainly a lot more in Christianity, like these like additional layers get like get of meaning get added onto it. And that, I would say that like doesn’t necessarily mean that like one interpretation is like that you can sort of like get back to sort of like, oh, we just got back to like the original version of Genesis that we would find like this like pure egalitarian, non-toxic version of God. Like I think like Christianity is like, keeps some extra shit onto this. I mean, we don’t need, like, and also like all sacred stories are always like, the meaning is made through wrestling with the text and how the community understands it.

1 (7m 45s):
And, and so like, it says something about like us when we put this like extra meaning back onto it that like, we’re inherently flawed and sinful. And it also, I think like as we to think about this, like this particular political moment, like it robs us of our agency, like, you can never do anything, right? You’re hopeless. You’re like, you need us some external salvation, just like sit around and wait. Like there are some like really sort of like pernicious messages that it takes that that sort of take can take hold if we play those out to their logical end results. And so I think that’s part of the reasons why we’re so invested in a, looking at these stories and telling them in new ways and also like storytelling, the, the power of story in general to sort of like shape our beliefs about like what’s possible for the world and what’s possible for ourselves.

1 (8m 35s):
And we write new stories that like sometimes like these stories like get into our bodies and spirits without us even realizing. And, and so to your point, like what then shifts if there’s like another idea, like, And I know in Sanctuary Collective we talk about this all the time And I know you got some, some great, some great insights on it. So like what shifts, if we go from a place of we’re fucked up and beyond repair and you know, like total totally depraved to some other way of understanding humanity and God relationship to God.

3 (9m 10s):
Yeah. I I wanna go back just for a second before I tackle that is like, I, it’s so interesting that you talk about the lack of agency because I’ve been seeing that all over Facebook right now as folks post about like Minneapolis and whatever. There are evangelicals in the comments that are like, yeah, well your problem is that like you’re looking for the government to save us. Like no one can save us, but God. Or like, we’re in the end times, we just have to wait for the rapture. Or like a savior is gonna come and save. Right? There is, there is this real sense of, well there’s nothing to be done, someone else supernatural.

3 (9m 52s):
Right? Like something else supernatural is gonna come and like intervene. And I think that there is like, that is one very specific worldview which is shared by like, I think a lot more people than many of us would like it to be.

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3 (10m 37s):
But I do think that there is also this sense on the left sometimes

1 (10m 40s):
Yes.

3 (10m 41s):
Of the same thing of like, some democratic president is going to save us, like if we just vote in the blue wave, like we will be saved if we just wait and follow the laws, like we will be saved. Right? And I, And I think to like what we were talking about when we talked about Matthew, the, the gospel of Matthew a couple weeks ago, the sense of like legality and the system writ large to, to quote unquote save us is like also a way of robbing us of our agency. It’s also a way of like keeping us passive. It’s also a way of keeping us in line and, and not quote unquote acting out.

3 (11m 27s):
Right? And I think that that, like, that is really dangerous. It’s really dangerous on both sides to like be believing that something or someone is going to come save us, as opposed to like, we gotta save ourselves.

1 (11m 41s):
Yeah. And I I think also, even if you’re not looking, I think this hospital happens on the left liberals, Democrats, leftists, like, who aren’t looking for the government to save us, right? But like they’re, we’re waiting for like the next, next MLK or the next Malcolm X or the, or like who’s our cat? This everdeen gonna be to like sweep in and save the day. Or like, we also see like end times theology in, in leftists. Like, well if we just, like, instead of waiting for the apocalypse, we’re waiting for like accelerationism for like to all get so bad that it all collapses and we’re not waiting for Jesus to come back. We’re waiting for like the glorious revolution. And it’s like we just like keep waiting for like, things to get so bad that like Jesus comes back or the revolution hap quote unquote, like the revolution happens, right?

1 (12m 29s):
Like I read some quote recently that was like, what do you mean? Like, I’m like, you’re like learning how to, like, we need to like joke, people joke like, oh, I need to like learn how to like hunt. So like when the apocalypse comes and the quote was like, the apocalypse is here. Like we’re in it. Yeah. Like, like you gotta, like, it’s not, it’s not someone from on a high is not gonna come in neither like communism nor Joe Biden is gonna like save us from this. We like, we save us.

3 (12m 57s):
Yeah. Yeah. And so when, you know, when you ask the question of like, what happens if we think differently? I, I’m just so struck by if, if we shift from a space of humans are all bad and there’s nothing we can do about it, and so therefore we need as a savior this sense of like the, the fall and original sin. If, if that’s our starting point, we, we can’t see where we get to, but what happens if we shift to that sense of original goodness and original blessing? You know, there, there, there are some folks that talk about instead of original sin, original blessing and this sense of Community and communion with God and with divinity of a place of paradise, of a place where we lived in harmony with the land with each other, that that as a guiding principle starting there suddenly gives us a very different perspective and a future to dwell out of and to then say, okay, well if that’s where we started, well what happened, right?

3 (14m 7s):
What happened to us that we got away from that? Right? And also, how might we get back there as is such a different conversation than, well, we can’t get back there, there’s nothing we can do because we were destined to, to be ups from the start. Right? I think that that is a, that is a drastically different perspective on life and on the universe. And, and it is one that we see in scripture, right? Like there is a sense of in the, into Genesis one, right, that creation story where everything is good and everything is in harmony and humans are in, in communion with the divine and with each other and with the land.

3 (14m 52s):
And like that is the vision that we start from. And I think that for me, looking at the arc of scripture for all of the bad rap that and bad readings of revelation that exist, there is a sense, if you read that text correctly, of getting back to a place where we’re at in harmony with each other. We’re living in communion with the divine. There we are back in the garden, right? And, and that, that is the arc of human narrative and like, that’s what we’re aiming for.

3 (15m 33s):
Not the sense of we’re gonna get like raptured and taken to a new planet and like let this one burn and most of the people on it, right? That is a very different conversation than saying like, oh no, we’re trying to get back to the sense of original goodness. And like, what does it do? I think in myself, I I I am a bit of a perfectionist. I can be really hard on myself. It is very easy for me to be like, I can catalog my faults, right? Like, I can give you a list today itemized and ready to go. And, and that even though like I don’t believe in hell and impede substitutionary tonin anymore, like that sense of there is something inherently wrong with me that I need to fix is like still in my psyche.

3 (16m 22s):
So what does it do for me as a human to say, oh no, like you were born with a sense of original blessing and, and how do you then tap into that in order to be in communion with the divine and with other people? I, that like totally changes the game and totally changes the way that I think and conceive of myself and how I move through the world.

1 (16m 49s):
Yeah. Also, just like a quick spoiler alert, our book, our, our new book, which comes out later this year is called Reading the Bible through Queer Eyes, good News for L-G-B-T-Q, people from Genesis to Revelation. And the last chapter in the book is about queering revelation. And so keep an eye out for that later this year if you want some more querying of revelation and, and, and the good news that is found there with this idea of like original blessing. And I, like a, a few years ago I read a book by Desmond Tutu and his and his daughter Mofo Tutu called Made for Goodness. And I think about like, it is, it is easy to forget that or to stop a believing that or to let other ideas about yourself and your inadequacies and your insecurities like sort of creep in.

1 (17m 37s):
And I also, I don’t know, like perfectionists that like have high standards also. Like I wanna make the world a better place And I feel like I, like social justice is really important to me. And so I can see all the ways in which I’m like could be doing more, more, more, more, more. Right? And I think that like one of you And I Shea both really appreciate the power of ritual and spiritual practice. And one of I think the key, well a few, a few, there’s a few like reasons for that. We go into all of it in our resistance and resilience workshop, which is inside of Queer Theology. But like quickly, a a few of the main things are, there’s like something about imagining the way that the world like could and should be through the power of ritual and also like reminding our ourselves of our deepest values and our, our place in all of the sort of like the cosmic drama and, and who we are.

1 (18m 26s):
And as like folks listening like may or not know, I converted to Judaism a few years ago and one of the practices there is is like daily prayer. And I go through periods where I do it every day And I go through periods where I do it like a few times a week And I do go through periods where I spend a few weeks, but for the past, like, like month or two, I’ve been really like diligent about doing it every, at least every morning. And there’s like a few like prayers and blessings in it that like I have been finding like really speak to me and like there’s one about it goes, my God, this whole you’ve given me is pure, you created, you shaped it, you breathed it into me and you protect it within me. It goes on, right? Like this was like remembering that like I’ve been given a pure soul. There’s like a blessing that says like, like plus you Ed And I are God created over the universe who like has made me the image of God.

1 (19m 12s):
There’s things about like working for peace and being humble and working for justice and taking care of the sick. And so like sometimes I like need those reminders of like, oh yeah, like we’re, I’m starting from a good place, which does not mean like there’s no work to do that I like neither, I like, like neither that I like can’t like quote unquote like improve myself nor that I can just sort of be like, oh, okay. Like I’m good, you’re good. We’re all good. There’s like nothing to do. Like, no, like we’re all good. And also there are still hungry people, there are still homeless people, there are still sick people. You still gotta like show up for your community to like celebrate with them and warn with them. Like people are still gonna be born and they’re gonna die and they’re gonna get married.

1 (19m 53s):
And so like there’s still like work, always work to be done. And also I think we can be more effective when we come from a place of like, oh yeah, humanity is good and worth saving And I am good and have agency than a sort of like fatalism of like, everything is always has been fucked and always will be fucked.

3 (20m 14s):
And I think that, you know, this is, this is maybe the more difficult piece is like once we can get that for ourselves, this idea of starting from goodness, then we also have to extend that out to other people, right? And I think that in the, in the moment that we’re living in, that can sometimes be hard to be like, yeah, oh, they too are good. And also like something has gotten warped. Right? Or like their, the behavior is not, yeah. But I do think that that allows us to enter into a space of saying we can still see the humanity of the people that are acting in really inhumane ways, right?

3 (21m 4s):
It it keeps us from othering them in such a way that it excuses and allows violence to happen. And, And I think when we look at the history of, of how genocides happen, right? So often it starts with a with being able to completely dehumanize

1 (21m 24s):
Mm.

3 (21m 25s):
Whoever it is that is our target at the that particular time. And so I think that this sense of, of internal goodness of starting from a place of goodness is also a preventative measure that it it keeps us from going to those places where people’s humanity is, is up for grabs. Which is not to say that like we can’t hold people accountable or call them on their bullshit or say like that their behavior and beliefs and actions are actively hurting people. Like that’s not what it’s about. But it is saying like, we see the humanity underneath all of that.

3 (22m 8s):
And, and that’s hard, right? There are people who I don’t really want to see their humanity right now who I would rather,

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3 (22m 49s):
They’d be relegated into the realm of like evil or fallen or unsalvageable, right? Because that is easier than thinking about their redemption too. And it’s complicated, right? I I think of, you texted me the other day like, there’s room in heaven for Fred Phelps and sometimes you gotta punch a Nazi and, And I think there’s right, like we hold the tension and, And I like, but, but it is a tension, right? But I think it’s an, it’s an important tension to be holding and to be sitting with and to be grappling with. And I don’t have easy or comfortable answers there, but I I just think it’s important to me.

1 (23m 33s):
Yeah. I’ve forgotten that I said that. I, I think I stand by that. I, I think one, one of my hot takes is that I don’t really believe in like good people and bad people. And I think for many of the reasons that you laid out here, like there’s something about which is not that people don’t do bad or harmful things and don’t do like noble or helpful or virtuous or useful things, right? Like, but that there’s something about like when we talk about good people or bad people, it gets into this sort of like intrinsic inherent like part of them, which is just like protestant predestination, like played out in sort of like pop morality that like, I, I don’t find it useful for truisms.

1 (24m 16s):
One is, I think to your point, it’s important that like, even as people do fucked up things that we like acknowledge everyone’s humanity. Like, and also if there’s good people and bad people, we just like spend so much time it’s a distraction like arguing over whether so and so like was a good person or a bad person as opposed, which is like, I don’t know, even if it was true that some people are good and some people are bad people, it’s like ultimately like this, the moral state of their like internal, I don’t know, like soul, like, is fundamentally unknowable and it distracts us from being like, well, who cares if they’re good or bad? Like, did this thing that they do harm people, hurt people, fracture society, bring us closer together, make our lives better, et cetera.

1 (24m 58s):
And it can sometimes keep us from acknowledging all the ways in which like we mess up because like, well if I’m a good person then either I couldn’t possibly have done the thing that you’ve said I’ve done or I did do the thing that you said I’ve done, but it doesn’t matter because I’m a good person. And so you should just like ignore it, forget it, like not be upset about it, excuse it. And so like, I think, not not that I wanna get like by any means necessary about it all like the answers to by the means, but like there is something about like, it, like the impact matters. And so like I, I think that it’s much more useful to say like, what if we all, we either we all start from place of goodness or it’s just all sort of neutral.

1 (25m 41s):
I mean, I personally like starting from place of goodness, but like if nothing else, a place of neutrality and saying like, okay, well then like from there we can look to see like, does this bring us closer together? And I like enriching my own humanity and the humanity of these people around me. And I think that like we can, we can see, like, I just think about, this is a, maybe a tangent, but like I think about all those Christians who are like, well, there has to be God and there has to be Jesus. Because if there wasn’t, like, we would just all go around murdering each other, right? I would just, I would just be an alcoholic rapist murderer philander if it wasn’t for Jesus. And like the threat of hell looming over me. And I just think like in, in all the midst of all of the terribleness of all of the bad shit that has gone wrong in our country over the past 200 years, and then the course of human molest civilization over the past like 6,000 years, like when bad stuff happens, we, there’s like some sort of like inherent part of us that place that is like, that is original blessing that starts from a place like that is like made for goodness.

1 (26m 44s):
It says like, this is not right. And like the outpouring of people into the streets all across the country, like after, after the murder of George Floyd, like in Minneapolis, I see like as far as I can see protests, like we, there’s a sense of like knowing Christians, Muslims, Jews, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists. Like there’s a sort of like, we a sort of sense of like, this is not right, things are not as the way they are supposed to be. And I think that’s gets at the heart of the stories of Genesis one, two, and three that like these ancient people are looking around and they have this sense of like, the world is not as it should be. Like we have this sort of internal intrinsic sense of like, it should not be this way.

1 (27m 26s):
So then like what the fuck happened and the creation story and, and what genesis well, two and one went into are kind of like two takes on the same story that are, that are different, but like two into Genesis two and three really are sort of like this imagining of like, how did things get so fucked up? And I think that rather than being prescriptive or deterministic and saying like, well we, like we are always flawed, it’s sort of a sense of like that humans could look at the state of affairs and be like, this isn’t right. Something, something must have gone cosmically horribly wrong because like, this is not how it should be. I think points towards our like inherent goodness that like we just sort of know that this is not right and we know not only that, but that, that we like can and should work towards a better tomorrow.

3 (28m 11s):
Yeah. And I think it also points to the fact of like, it’s so, so, so important that we pay attention to the stories that we’re telling ourselves about how we got to, to where we are, right? And that’s both a religious story, but it’s also a political story. The political stories that we tell, it’s the stories, it’s our country, it’s the stories, right? Like all of these stories matter and they shape how we understand ourselves and our place in the world and our place in relation to each other. And so this is also a moment where I think many of us need to interrogate the stories that we’ve been handed, both religious stories and political stories, especially as white folks in the United States, but I think also as people who got American history in schools in the United States, right?

3 (29m 4s):
Like we need to be interrogating those stories because they shape, they shape our viewpoints and, and they were told for a specific reason in, in specific ways. And I think that like doing that work to understand that and to understand how those stories have been used and how they continue to be used is, is really important and is one of the things that can help us to imagine a new and better future. Like when we understand the story that we’re in and we understand where it came from, then we can start to say like, does the story serve what might be a story that will serve better?

3 (29m 45s):
Let’s go chase after that.

7 (29m 47s):
Amen. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (29m 57s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

7 (30m 5s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post In The Beginning We Were Good appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• The passage in Matthew 4 highlights the call to action in the face of injustice.
• Resistance is often catalyzed by witnessing the arrest or harm of others.
• Community organizing is essential for effective resistance against systemic issues.
• Criminality is often framed by those in power to suppress movements for justice.
• Building community infrastructure is crucial for sustained activism.
• Engaging with local movements can amplify existing efforts and support.
• Small actions collectively contribute to larger movements for change.
• Finding common ground with neighbors can foster community resilience.
• The importance of showing up and being present in community efforts.
• Action is the antidote to fear and overwhelm in the face of injustice.

Chapters

00:00 Exploring Matthew 4: The Call to Action

02:47 Reflections on Resistance and Community Organizing

05:42 The Role of Criminality in Social Justice

08:23 Building Community and Infrastructure

11:11 Engaging with Local Movements

13:55 The Power of Small Actions

16:39 Finding Common Ground in Community

Resources:

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G

2 (12s):
Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

1 (32s):
Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. We are going to be digging into another Bible passage as we going back to our roots and querying a text. Today we’re gonna be looking at Matthew four 12 through 23. We’ve got some good words to say about it. So at first, I’ll read it from the common English Bible. Now, when Jesus heard that John was arrested, he went to Galilee, he left Nazarus and settled in Capernaum, which lies alongside the sea in the area of Zein and nep. This fulfilled what Isaiah, the prophet said, land of Zebulon and land Nepali alongside the sea, across the Jordan Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who lived in the dark have seen a great light, and a light has come upon those who lived in the region and in the shadow of death.

1 (1m 16s):
From that time, Jesus began to announce, change your hearts and lives. Here comes the kingdom of heaven. As Jesus walked alongside the Galilee sea, he saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter and Andrew throwing fishing nets into the sea because they’re fishermen, come follow me. He said, and I’ll show you how to fish for people. Right away, they left their nets and followed him. Continuing on, he saw another set of brothers James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat with Zebedee. Their father repairing their nets. Jesus called them and immediately they left their boat and their father and followed him. Jesus traveled throughout Galilee teaching and their synagogues. He announced the good news of the kingdom and healed every disease and sickness among people.

1 (1m 59s):
Alright, Shay, we did a deep dive on the gospel of Matthew a few years ago. We’ll link to that series in the show notes of this episode, But we wanted to like revisit this passage today. And so there’s a lot in here in just a few short verses. There’s a few stories here. And so what, what jumps out for you today?

3 (2m 18s):
Yeah, I mean, you know, as we’re recording this, we’ve been watching the events unfold in Minneapolis over the last weeks now, but especially heightened over the last weekend with yet another murder by ice agents in the streets. And just thinking about like, you know, I lived in Minneapolis for 12 years, so it’s, it’s really wild and heartbreaking and terrifying to be watching everything that’s happening, especially now that I’m not there anymore. I was texting you the other day, Brian, right? Like, there’s all of this footage of in, of people in front of restaurants that we used to go to all the time or in front of our apartment building, and it’s just, it’s so surreal.

3 (3m 2s):
And also the folks in Minneapolis are doing such an incredible job organizing and resisting and fighting back against this terrible occupation. And it’s so easy for me to like see the parallels as we read this passage, right? I, I’m so struck by, I’m so struck by the fact that this passage starts out with, after John was arrested, Jesus did X, Y, Z, right? There’s this sense of Jesus maybe being on the periphery of the movement, maybe watching the movement and seeing his friend, his cousin get arrested.

3 (3m 46s):
And that being the thing that kind of like mobilizes him, catalyzes him to get involved. Our friend, the Reverend l Dowd had this thing as she was preparing to preach on this passage she posted on Facebook. She said, repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near, which is Jesus quoting John in Galilee as he begins his public ministry in res in response to John’s arrest. This is still l saying, I cannot stop thinking about what an absolute power move it is to go to the turf of the tyrant who just arrested your comrade for speaking out and to start out your ministry by quoting that same arrested comrade. And I think that’s such a beautiful, beautiful reflection on this passage.

3 (4m 28s):
And I think that that’s also right what we’re seeing in Minneapolis, that every time someone gets arrested or taken away or murdered, like more people show up in that very same spot with the same, same kind of energy and commitment. And I, I’m just really struck by that and, and by the parallels to this passage. So that’s kind of the first thing that comes up for me.

1 (4m 52s):
Yeah, I, I, I was watching an Instagram real earlier today and someone was talking about like, you might have noticed, like usually apolitical like fitness influencers and organic food, like girlies and like those folks like starting to post like about what’s happening in Minneapolis. And her like reflection on that was like, I don’t know man, like where have you been? And also like, okay, like if this, the moment that like wakes you up, this is the moment that wakes you up. And so like it’s, I don’t know, it’s easy for me. Like I got radicalized in like 2006, 2007 to be like, yeah, I’ve been here.

1 (5m 36s):
But it’s like different things for different people at different times. And so even Jesus that like, I think there could have been a moment where the, the movement that could have been like, where have you been? Like we’ve been living under Roman occupation your whole life. Like it took, it took John getting arrested for you to wake up, but like for whatever, like he came of age, he became publicly aware. It affects on like whatever it was like that was a moment for him. And so I think like whatever the moment is for you to like, the best time was a long time ago that the second best time is right now today to just sort of get involved. And like, I think when you were talking about people getting arrested or people getting shot and then like people to descend upon that with the same energy.

1 (6m 15s):
And I like, that’s true. And also like none of that happens on its own or by accident. Like that happens because like people choose to put their bodies out there. And so like, it, like it won’t happen unless people get ballsy and go. And so like, and maybe it’s protest for you, like maybe it’s not protest for you, but like, you know, like MLK Jr quoted, I think it was Theodore Parker, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. And like, this is one of those moments where I think I like disagree with MLK that like, it doesn’t bend itself on, on its own. Like I believe that love wins And I believe that we will defeat white Christian nationalism and, and the encroaching fascism in the US.

1 (6m 56s):
Like, and also it’s like not gonna happen because like a god in the sky saves. It’s because it’s going to be like the God in our midst. The God that appears when we join together each other is what stops it. So like in all the ways that we can resist in the streets by talking to our family, by meeting our neighbors, by calling our politicians, by showing up at food banks, like in all of the ways, like we actually have to like make the choice to take the action is one thing that that shows up. And I, And I’m also struck by the arrest part, and as we’re seeing people getting arrested, the narrative being framed of like they were resisting arrests, they were impeding arrests, trying to say like, the immigrants that they’re going after are criminals and have they broken the law that this like narrative of like law and order and criminality is like leveraged against us to try and like normalize all of the violence that’s happening.

1 (7m 56s):
And like, I think we need to not buy into that because the people in power could just change what is legal who was a criminal, right? Like, like that’s how it works, right? Like everything that happened in Nazi Germany was legal, right? Like they, they changed the laws to make it such, and so like we have to get comfortable saying like, it’s not just that they like don’t deserve to be shot, arrested, deported, et cetera, because like they’re innocent. It’s because like no one deserves that because like the laws will change such that queer people and trans people become sex offenders just for existing in public. That if you like help your friend in a state where like gender affirming medication and hormones have been restricted.

1 (8m 38s):
If you help ’em get that medication now you’re like a drug dealer. If you help a friend travel to a state where they can get an abortion, like now you’re a human trafficker, right? And so we have to be like really wary of even these like categories of criminals that, like criminals, quotes that seem really horrific, drug dealers, sex trafficker, et cetera, like sex offender. Like those are not necessarily these like horrific monsters that we make them out to be. Sometimes it’s like the mom helping her daughter like get her, get her hormones. And so like, and, and we see this like throughout the Hebrew Bible and the Christian scripture is like John was arrested and executed. Jesus was arrested and executed most of the early, like most of the disciples were like arrested and executed.

1 (9m 22s):
Paul was put in jail. Like criminality is like waged against people who follow trying to sort of bring about the kingdom of God on earth as in heaven. And, and so like, it’s not a new or radical thing to say, like sometimes you’re gonna go up against the powers that be. So we have to get comfortable like doing illegal things or, or providing age people who are doing things that an unjust system calls illegal, right?

3 (9m 49s):
Yeah. Yeah. And, And I think, I think you’re exactly right. You know, I’ve been working more with it with people in, in the prison system and so many of the times when I hear their stories it’s like, oh, you have this label or this charge or this crime, like that is not at all what you did, right? Like, or that is not at all like what we conceive of when we hear of that crime. And there are so many things that play into that, like poverty and race and gender and homophobia and transphobia. And so I think, I think that you’re exactly right and, And I think that even as someone who is pretty aware, like that has been really eye-opening to, to sit with people and hear their stories and then to like have their cry and be like, wait, wait, why?

3 (10m 42s):
What are you, what are you talking about? Like, this is what is nuts. And I think too that there is something too to be said, like in in addition to like, this work won’t happen unless we show up and make it happen. It’s also that this in Minneapolis has been building and this is a community that is like filled with organists and organizers and activists and people who like do community organizing in a way that I’ve not seen in a lot of other places, right? Like it’s just so baked into the DNA of, of that city and it’s, they’ve been building this infrastructure for at least a decade, right?

3 (11m 28s):
And so I think that that is also important to remember, you know, we talk about like, it would’ve been good for everyone to be building this infrastructure a decade ago, but now we have to build it right now. And so like, you know, figuring out, like, you might not be able to get a response like Minneapolis in your community, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything, right? That there is an infrastructure to be built. And it’s important that we learn from the people that are doing it. Like I’m, I’m really struck often by the fact that like Jesus, the way that we often talk about it, right, is that Jesus like started a new movement, but the reality is that Jesus stepped into a movement that already existed and like amplified what was happening and picked up a mantle from John who was probably a mentor to him.

3 (12m 18s):
And so like as you think about how you might get involved, like one of the things that I’m thinking a lot about is like, who am I learning from? Who’s mantle am I picking up? How am I entering into community that’s already there? Like, one of my things in the past has been like, well, I’m just gonna like start a new organization. And I’ve had really had to learn to be like, no, you should tap into what already exists. I mean, sometimes it is true that there is nothing and you have to start it, right. And also often there is something and like you can enter into it and figure out how to support it and how to plug in where you are.

3 (12m 58s):
And, and like you said, like that doesn’t necessarily mean protesting, right? There are so many things that are happening on the ground in Minneapolis of like people delivering food, people sorting food that’s been donated, people standing on their street corners, people driving kids to school, right? Like people providing childcare. Like there are so many different ways, but it does involve like knowing your neighbors and figuring out how to get more involved. And I think that that’s, that’s really important and something that like we should all be thinking about right now.

1 (13m 33s):
Yeah, I think for me, when I think about the ways in which that I sort of get involved in the work offline is it’s like a two-pronged approach that there’s like you were saying, like plugging into formal organizations that are already doing the work, have been doing the work, have been doing the work for a long time, and there’s like so many issues. Like there’s something for everyone, right? And so you can’t actually, here’s like the good news. It’s both, it’s both scary news and good news. Like you, you dear listener, like can’t actually solve every single one of the world’s problems. You actually can’t even solve one of them all on your own, right? And so you can like, just like, you can just like let go of the notion that you have to fix it all.

1 (14m 13s):
And so like what you can do is like find a thing or a few things that are meaningful to you, that are accessible to you that like you have, but that you can be useful to and like go do those things. So like follow your curiosity when it comes to like, whether it’s homelessness or like women’s rights or domestic violence or abortion access or healthcare or like environmental justice, community gardens, like whatever it might be. There’s so many different things. And like go go find an organization to, to volunteer at, to learn from, to like attend a session at whatever it might be.

1 (14m 56s):
Informal networks, like folks, groups happening out of churches or synagogues, food banks. Like there’s just so many different ways to get involved. And then also to your point, like there’s also like an an informalness to it. Like, like meet your neighbors, like exchange phone numbers with your neighbors, talk to your neighbors, have your neighbors over for dinner. Like yes, it’s good to have community potluck. So like with your poly Q or with your queer chosen family and to sort of like get on the subway or like drive to the other side of town to like meet up with folks. Like yes, do that also, like strengthen your friendships and your extended like community. Like, and also like your literal next door neighbor. Like do you know their name? Because like those bonds of like knowing the people nearby contribute to a sort of sense of like rootedness and to togetherness.

1 (15m 47s):
I was just reading this book about like convenience and how we get so many of us are like optimizing our lives for convenience. We like order our products, our like close online. We like order our groceries for pickup. We like order our takeout off of an app. Or even if we’re going in for like our delivery on an app, even if we’re going in for takeout, we’re like order online. And that there actually is something about like buying your screws from like the hardware store going to the same pizza place and the guy knowing your name, like going to the tailor and having the tailor know you as opposed to just like buying a new clothes from Amazon or Zara or Costco every time you need something new. Which is like, not to say that you’re like friends with your tailor or the cashier or whatever, but there is a sense of like, oh yeah, I brought your package.

1 (16m 31s):
Like I live in an apartment building, so like I, like if I see someone has a package on a floor, I’m not going upstairs, but like on my floor below, I’ll like bring the package up so that they don’t have to come down to get it right. Like saying just like there’s a sense of like knowing and being accessible to the people around you that like changes your relationship with place and your like sense of safety and community and danger and belonging. And so like I think that there is also yes, like sign the petitions, right? Your lawmakers show up to the protests, volunteer at the food banks, give the money, whatever it is. Like, and also there’s something to be said about like throwing a block party for your six neighbors on your street.

3 (17m 15s):
Yeah. And I think that what’s so important about that to me is that I don’t necessarily have to be BFFs with any of those people, right? I I don’t even have to share ideological ideas or, or agree or vote the same. Right? And also we can still show up for each other When it comes to community things. Right? And, And I think that that too is how we break down some of the silos and some of the echo chambers on both sides to, to be able to be in community with people. And again, like this doesn’t mean that we agree, it doesn’t mean that those differences in beliefs don’t matter, but it does mean that like there are things that we can work together on even when we don’t agree.

3 (18m 5s):
Yeah. And there are ways that we can look out for each other even when we don’t agree, which can be really scary, I think to think about and can be really scary to like put yourself in a position where you’re like, I, I don’t, it feels safer to not know my neighbors or to be anonymous, but that’s like, it’s not actually safer, right? And so that’s something that I’ve had to wrestle with a lot. Like I I live in a rural community in a red state and like that’s complicated. And also it does matter that I know my neighbors and that I am able to figure out how to be in community with people.

1 (18m 41s):
Yeah. And you know, you see this also in, to bring it back to the Bible for a second, like the early church that like it as recorded in scripture, right? They’re wrestling with like different points of view within the movement and not that like the tent needs to be so big that we like lose sense of our like moral center. Like, and also like there are sometimes that we’re going to like either disagree about tactics or we’re going to have slightly different values. And so like figuring out like how do we stay connected to community and working towards a common goal while also like, just like recognizing that like we’re all, we’re all individual humans on our various journeys and we all bring like unique perspectives to things. And so yeah, I mean I think like it is a, it is a bizarro time and like, I don’t know, this is probably like the 17th time on the podcast in the past 15 years that we’ve said like, this is a bizarro time, right?

1 (19m 35s):
Like one of the things is that like, like there’s, there’s always some injustice and this is not new, right? Like maybe it’s affecting, maybe it’s getting new coverage, more coverage, different coverage. It’s affecting more people, whiter people. But like there’s always been injustice and especially for immigrants, for people of color, for queer people, this sort of like state violence is like not new. And also like we have to do something about it. And I think there’s, it can feel overwhelming And I think like, you know, like the antidotes to that, the antidote to fear aren’t overwhelm is action. And so whatever the small simple action that you can do it all, it all matters.

1 (20m 18s):
’cause like collectively, we have a lot of power.

4 (20m 22s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for BTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (20m 31s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

4 (20m 39s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post After the Arrest: Faith Under Occupation appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Learn more about Soulforce at: https://soulforce.org/ 
• Learn more about Rev. Sex | Alba Onofrio https://www.reverendsex.com/about 
• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community/

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

1 (33s):
Reverend Alba Onofrio is a theologian and spiritual activist rooted in the US South, engaged in human rights work for over two decades throughout the US and Latin America. As a queer feminist Christian pastor, their ministry moves at the intersections of religion, gender, and sexuality to heal the wounds of spiritual violence and weaponized religion. Also known as Reverend Sex and Co founder of The Sexual Liberation Collective. Their global education work seeks to eradicate shame and fear around bodies and sex, reclaiming pleasure and desire as sacred centers of knowledge, healing, and spiritual practice. As Executive Director and Spiritual Strategist of Soulforce, Reverend Alba has published liberatory Theological Resources on uncovering the theologies of white Christian Supremacy.

1 (1m 16s):
Their work has been translated into seven languages and shared around the world. And as you will hear In this episode, Soulforce shares a special place in my heart as it is one of the places in which I came back to faith. And what I learned there has informed much of my work and activism and spirituality since then. And so I’m so excited for you to hear this conversation with Reverend Sex. Abba, thank you so much for being here where it’s really exciting to have the Reverend Sex on the Queer Theology Podcast. So thank you for being here.

3 (1m 47s):
It is a pleasure and a delight. I’ve been waiting for my invitation with Baited Breath forever, so I’m glad to be here with you.

1 (1m 55s):
Yeah, and as, as you know and as like many of the listeners know, like I think Soulforce is what really like radicalize me, if you will. And so there’s definitely like a before Soulforce and after Soulforce. And so I’m so like, I’m just so jazzed I talk about your organ, what the organization that you are now of executive director of, I mean, have been for over a decade so much. And so I’m so glad that we’re able to have you here on the podcast with us.

3 (2m 18s):
Yes. I’m glad we could ruin you in the best way. Yes.

1 (2m 21s):
I was saying before we started recording you like really like talked, but like in a, in a delightful, delightful way.

3 (2m 26s):
Yes. Yeah, yeah, it is like that sometimes. So

1 (2m 29s):
For folks who don’t know already, like what is soulforce and relatedly like what is this like Reverend sex project or persona that you’ve got going on?

3 (2m 39s):
Oh my goodness. Big questions. I’ll try to, I know it’s like standing

1 (2m 41s):
On one

3 (2m 42s):
Leg. Short order.

1 (2m 43s):
Yeah.

3 (2m 45s):
Soulforce has been around for almost three decades now and we started as kind of a rabble rousing, wholly trouble making, calling attention to the issue of lgbtqia plus inclusion in Christian college campuses, in church denominations across the board, but on the heels of a very famous book that was written by our founder Reverend Dr. Mel White and his husband Gary Nixon. And that came out, it was about being gay and Christian in America called Stranger at the Gate. And that got so much publicity and press that this kind of communication strategy of calling a lot of attention to this issue through not being scared of the Bible and not being scared of theology and being willing to take our actual bodies into conservative Christian spaces to try to have dialogue that proved that we were willing to engage and honest and earnest in what we wanted to talk about.

3 (3m 44s):
That’s how we started. Lots of civil disobedience, lots of colleges shut down. You would know about that better than I would ’cause you were on those equality rides back in the day. Yeah, that’s how we started. That’s how a lot of people know us as kind of a fearless organization, willing to have the hard conversations about things that most people are taught or taboo or not allowed or wrong or evil. And then over the course of the decades we’ve transformed into more of an ideological change work and culture change work kind of organization. And basically what that means is that we found that at the core of what was oppressing LGBTQI plus people in terms of religious violence is actually at the intersection of almost every social justice issue.

3 (4m 33s):
And we call that thing white Christian Supremacy. And that basic concept is just this idea that power and systems of power, whether it’s imperialism, white supremacy, pick a thing, takes on the false robes of Christianity in terms of text tradition lingo, how we talk to get people to be complicit with systems of power and domination. And we claim that as not Christianity. That is not about a faith practice that’s actually about keeping and hoarding power and greed. And so doing some of that work of helping de mythologize all of this Christian ease and all of these traditions that we come from that we find ourselves nodding along to things that are actually really horrific that we wouldn’t normally say yes to except for that they come cloaked with a fancy preacher in the good book and therefore we, we kind of go along with it.

3 (5m 23s):
So that’s what we do now. We do it a million ways from Sunday. We really love it. We work in the US South and in the global south to do some bridging work across the academy, the streets and activism as well as the church and communities in general.

1 (5m 39s):
Yeah, it’s really incredible. We’re talking about doing like a, an episode or a, a series about like diving into like direct action activism days with so forth. So if people are

3 (5m 48s):
I love that.

1 (5m 49s):
Yeah. But so that’s the last conversation for another day, I think. But to, but to get at the heart of it, I know that, so folks who are listening almost certainly came from some version of conservative Christianity or, or in some version of like maybe progressive faith. But so I know for a lot of folks either they used to wrestle with, is it okay to be queer or like Gay and Christian, L-G-B-T-Q, maybe they are okay with that, but they have like friends or family who are not fully accepting or like maybe they’re surrounded by love and affirmation, but they just sort of are aware that like Christian based homophobia is an issue. And so they’re like, have a heart for trying to to change that. And so you yes, you really specialize on like this sort of like change work, I think you called it.

1 (6m 33s):
So like what, what did, And I know that you’ve taken different tactics over the years, like what have you found, like is the thing that changes hearts and minds but also changes like policy and culture and are those the same things or, or, because I know, I know Scott, we were talking about this beforehand, like so many people just like wanna be like, let’s talk about so ga more. And I like, what does this word in like Romans Yeah, in Romans are in First Corinthians mean, and like blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And all the books that have been written about that, but like, is that it or is there something else? And like what is that?

3 (6m 60s):
Well, I am a believer in a multitude of strategies and tactics. So I will say yes to all of the above. Soulforce really specializes in how we work on healing our own spiritual violence. And that’s what we call that either spiritual violence or spiritual terrorism. When it gets to kind of the systemic from all sides level that hurt that comes inside us, really inhibits us from being able to try to participate in democracy from trying to demand our rights or even just respect in our own families, communities, et cetera. Because a lot of us carry these tiny little voices in the back of our head of someone we loved probably or respected who told us something about being queer, being trans, that we put away as illogical and not true when we deconstructed the Bible.

3 (7m 50s):
But maybe there’s a little question, especially when something bad happens or something goes wrong, which is like, oh, are were they right? Or does God hate me or am I going to hell? It’s like those little, those little voices that can really just leave really deep wounds or at the very least little splinters that are just irritating all the time. So that we call spiritual violence. And what our strategy is, is we start with working on ourselves because that’s the sphere over which we have the most control. We have the most agency, we have the most excitement, I hope about how we heal our own spirits and our minds. So some of that is education work.

3 (8m 30s):
Like until somebody broke down Sodom and Gaura for me, I was like, maybe it does say that. I mean I have been in places like South Africa for example, where I was doing work with a group of LGBT clergy and it was still almost panic inducing for folks to look at the actual text. Even though I was saying, this isn’t about us. It was so embedded in cultural speak, in family speak that so many of us don’t wanna even confront the text to look at it. And so that’s part of it is education. So we have a whole theological library that’s free for download online that talks about gender diversity in the Bible, Sodom and Gamora, Mary’s choice if you’re interested in reproductive justice, a zillion things in seven different languages.

3 (9m 17s):
So hopefully you’ll find what you need there. So that’s one piece is the education. Another piece is community and finding other folks who are doing similar work and peeling away so that we don’t have shame around. I can’t believe I believe that. Which is like, of course we believe that that’s what we were taught. Yeah. That’s what our heart was trained to respond to. So we actually have to peel back and unlearn those things. It wasn’t because we were somehow stupid or naive even, it was just what we were surrounded with, like the fish in the water. So we do work around creating community. Most recently that’s looked like our queer feminist podcast focused on Latinx folks in Latin America and the US who are theologically trained, who are working through issues of our time.

3 (10m 5s):
And it’s not always just about gender and sexuality, the intersection of that kind of harm, where weaponized religion comes for social justice is true for environmentalism, it’s true for democracy. It goes down the line for so many different kinds of struggles. So we really work at that intersection. And then of course there’s always a celebration. We have this really fun, wonderful experimental spirit space called, or Church of the Queerly beloved, that actually centers drag performance and trans burlesque and spoken word to different things like that from a local community in partnership with us where we do a reverse altar call where we offer a, a symbolic apology or where we do a trans Baptism, where we affirm folks with their new names or a revised communion based on the promise of milk and honey, a land flow with milk and honey.

3 (11m 2s):
So we have a lot of ideas and then we execute some of those ideas into practice and try it out and see how it goes. And then try something else and then try something else and then try something else.

1 (11m 12s):
I love it. I love it. I could imagine for folks it’s like a little bit like greeking from a fire hose, every, all of that. And so like what, like it either you can take it in in two ways. Like what’s like a day in the life of, of Reverend Sex or like what’s like one story of like impact that like really sticks with you or I guess both. Ooh,

3 (11m 37s):
Well, there’s no two days that are the same. There’s a lot of meetings and coordination, but I, on, on our busy years, I can travel the circumference of the earth multiple times in a year. So there’s a lot of bouncing around to be with our lgbtqia plus community, particularly in the global south. And I think one of the things that stands out over and over and over again is that no matter where I am, so for example, I did a workshop with our team in a brothel in downtown keto Ecuador. And so I’m in this brothel with more than a hundred sex workers.

3 (12m 18s):
And that same experience can translate into an experience with a group of trans folks in Nairobi and Kenya. There are always these places where I hear really horrific stories actually about weaponized Christianity and about how our people are told that we’re not allowed to have access to God or to tradition or to rituals or practice. I think the thing that sticks with me so strongly is folks will always start with, especially if they’re feminists, which I love this about activists and particularly feminists, they’re like, all right, let’s start with a rib.

3 (12m 58s):
Like, and it just turns into this maybe hour and a half, two hour long session about the Bible and the Rowans and the Sodom Mangan war, like just going down list. It’s like testing my chops, being like, do you actually know what you’re talking about? Okay. Then we move from that stage to the next phase, which is like, this is, this is what I was taught. This is the horrible things that I experienced from conversion therapy to genital mutilation all the way down the line. And then there’s always this moment that for me is so impactful where the people or a person in front of me will always confess, I never really gave up on God. I just couldn’t go to church anymore.

3 (13m 38s):
Or I couldn’t believe that thing that was hurting me anymore. And that I think is such a testimony to our right as human beings to have spirituality in whatever form and how even those of us who have by and large been either tossed aside, given up on or demonized by a religious tradition and institutions continue to persist in our own faith practices and beliefs in spite of all of that. And that for me is such a hopeful and powerful moment because then it turns into this very frenetic chatter of like, but how can you be queer and a Christian? And you’re a pastor and you’re a woman, and how can that happen?

3 (14m 18s):
And are there more like you? And are you the only one? And, and, and and that experience that I could repeat for you on four different continents on any given year is so powerful about what is true about our people and where we are, whether we’re Christian or not Christian is irrelevant to me. We have every right to be Christian and every right to not be Christian, but it is that that reality that our people are hurting and spirit is very much alive and well regardless of what clothing or tradition it takes on.

1 (14m 52s):
Yeah. Oh gosh. So a lot of our listeners are in English speaking countries. Most of them are in the United States, like, you know, a smattering of, I mean, we’re, where are we? It’s, it’s wild because we realized a few years ago that I think we’ve had visitors and or downloads to our website from like over 200 countries. Like it’s basically like every country in the world about like seven Yes. Or six. And so like, so it, this also spans the globe like, and also a lot of them are in the US or in like Denmark, Germany, United Kingdom, Australia, et cetera. And so I could imagine folks that are like at home, not on four continents every, every year.

1 (15m 33s):
Like, so there’s like this, all of this like movement happening all over the world. Like what’s the message for the like person at home, whether that’s in like upstate New York or Nebraska or like Johannesburg or like wherever, wherever they might be. Like they’re sort of like in their own home listening. The two of us talk in their ears. Like how does, like what’s, how do you connect the dots between everything out there and your, someone’s like day-to-day life?

3 (15m 59s):
Hmm. Great question. I love that question. That makes any sense. I think so let me try. I think that some of us who are full-time gay for pay activists, nonprofit workers, or just like out and proud in our workplace, I think we lose sight of how alive and relevant questions are. And I think in the US those are coming back around where we learned that some of the things that we thought were foregone conclusions in terms of our access and our rights is no longer a foregone conclusion. It isn’t yesterday’s news anymore. It continues to be on the horizon as a growing and ongoing concern. So I wanna just remind us all that there are so many of us all over the world in so many languages and cultures, and the vast majority of folks that I talk to have one never heard of being queer and Christian.

3 (16m 54s):
They, it just doesn’t exist in their world unless they’re one of the few who has snuck on to the internet. Our website, I don’t know about y’all’s podcast, but our website is banned in like many countries, including like the University of Mississippi, right? Depending on what country you’re in. Yeah. But

1 (17m 14s):
We clear the names

3 (17m 15s):
Out, Right? Literally it’s just really important to remember that there are so many of us who continue to exist in almost impossible circumstances, both within the US and outside of the us. And that colonizing religion, the part of Christianity that was used to say that some of us were more human than others, some of us deserved wellbeing, while others deserved less than that is still something that we have to actively fight against. And so if you’re not Christian, but you come from that tradition, then I feel like there’s a lot there for you to pull from learn from and help decolonize for other folks in the world who are on that journey.

3 (17m 59s):
And if you are a Christian, us more than anyone has a responsibility around this God that we claim to serve being stolen and co-opted and used not just in the us. Like just because we don’t hear about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Yeah. For example, you know, I’m thinking about Exodus. Exodus, the ex-gay reparative therapy, miserable strategy of trying to make queer trans people straight and cis when, when that fell out of fashion here and there was apologies and all of that stuff, I feel like a lot of people in the US were like, Ooh, we’re done with that, thank goodness. Whew. But that actually that whole operation, that money making operation, because the point was making money, not just trying to quote unquote heal people, just move south.

3 (18m 49s):
So there’s a huge operation in Ecuador that’s like flowing all throughout Latin America. That’s also true all across Eastern Africa and Southern Africa. I don’t know a lot about, much more about the rest of the continent, but those things still exist and are alive and around. So us knowing about them and being in solidarity with others who have less access, whether that means you have less access is because you’re in a rural place, or whether you’re in a really insulated bubble inside your community or whether you’re on a different continent. Being vigilant about that and really doing the depths of taking responsibility for our religion or our religious traditions that we were raised in feels like one of the most important things that we can do as people of good conscience, whether we’re Christian or not.

3 (19m 37s):
Yeah.

1 (19m 37s):
And so that like brings me to, I, one way that folks can be like paying attention and learning is, is one of your podcasts, which I unfortunately don’t speak Spanish, so I’m not gonna try to say it in Spanish, but like your your shameless theology podcast, shameless, yeah. Which is now had this like a season in English, I believe. And so like can you tell us like about, like more about that project?

3 (19m 57s):
Totally. So it’s called, which roughly translate as shameless theology, but is a term used in Spanish. It’s a little bit different depending on the place and the culture throughout Latin America, but it almost always has this very gendered most of the time sexualized term. And I think about my granny, I grew up in Appalachia, so I think about my granny would saying something like, have, you know Shane? Like, it feels like that the Za. And so this podcast started during the height of pandemic in Spanish. We did 77 episodes in Spanish, and then we have a whole new season in English that’s focused on the US diaspora, which is brilliant and amazing.

3 (20m 40s):
And it’s basically folks who engage with queer and Latinx theology, liberation theology in thinking about how that applies to everyday life for folks in really important issues of our time, whether that’s divorce or human sexuality or the environment or the Bible. And so everybody’s theologically trained and we just sit down and have a conversation where we really try to listen to that person’s whole life and experience and how all those things go together to make this kind of juicy theology that helps us break away from all the things that we are taught. Because often in immigrant communities and first gen communities, we’re totally connected to our homelands and our homelands religious traditions and cycles of life.

3 (21m 26s):
And yet the far right, I mean the extreme right almost has an entire monopoly on all the airwaves, you know, especially in other languages. So we started in Spanish, But we recognize that not all Latinx people have access to Spanish either because they come from a non-Spanish speaking country or just because they were raised in the US where they don’t, we also invite all of our allies and other folks to listen.

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3 (22m 21s):
But if there’s something, if your only narrative about immigrants or Latina folks is one about fleeing war torn countries or immigration or the border or those poor farm workers, this is a way for those of us who didn’t, I mean, I went to Diviv school And I didn’t get any education around Latin American feminist theology at all. This is a way for those folks, for folks who are interested in that but didn’t have access to it in Spanish, can tap in and hear what we’re talking about in those spheres. What’s alive, what’s the new and current things that we’re thinking about, and how might that help us actually in the US in lots of other issues that we’re facing that countries in Latin America have already faced or been facing in grand part often because of us interventions.

3 (23m 9s):
So it’s a really juicy podcast to listen to voices that you wouldn’t normally hear here in, in mainstream media or in even in theological education for the most part.

1 (23m 22s):
Mm. Yeah. I mean there’s like some great theology coming out of like Latin America and, and like in addition to like, you know, James Cohen Black Liberation Theology, but like yeah. An American libert theology and like ourselves, like we’re not like place my heart. Yes. And so like, so I can imagine, because we get this also of like Shannon went to Union Theological Seminary, we do a lot, we like, so we like talk these like big ideas. And so I can imagine someone being like, well, it’s great theology podcast. Like, you’re like about ideas, but like how does, like how does that, like why is that important to, to, to to for, for folks to like listen to?

1 (24m 7s):
Like what, like what change does that making people?

3 (24m 10s):
Hmm. Well let me give you a couple examples. Just from this season alone. Yeah. ’cause I could go down the laundry list of all of our brilliant theologians from past years, but just in this season alone, we have a trans pastor who is from the Texas borderland region who’s doing summer camp for trans kids in this kind of incognito moves from here, moves to from there kind of thing because of that hostile atmosphere. There’s another theologian who lived and survived the dictatorship in Argentina. And so her focus on, y’all probably know of her, Dr.

3 (24m 50s):
Nancy Bedford, she does work that’s beautiful but also really relevant to this moment that we’re living in in the us. So hearing her talk about what church tradition was like for her, how she sees theology, the Holy Spirit when she’s talking about one of the most important resources for this moment, for this political moment as prayer that really perks my ears. And I’m like, what are you talking about? Prayer is like a deeply internal devotional practice, whatever. She’s like, no, this is a political strategy because, And I won’t spoil it, you have to go listen, hers is episode two. There’s another person who is undocumented. So they’re coming out and sharing their story of being theologically trained as a person who is part of the DACA and the Dreamers movement who was currently undocumented in the US and her lived experience around that.

3 (25m 39s):
There’s another one that part of an episode that is brilliant about someone who is a pastor of a UCC congregation inside a virtual reality called Second Life. So listening to how they provide truly and authentically accessible, meaning anyone in different countries with different needs. And like for example, one of, just a quick example of that is there was someone in Europe, I think in Sweden who was in a facility and wanted to be baptized but was super touch averse and so couldn’t go through the regular process of Baptism, but through their avatar in first life, they literally created the baptismal font.

3 (26m 21s):
They invited people, they had it live streamed so that their family could be a part of it. And that person got to have their Baptism through this virtual reality with all of their accessibility needs being addressed in the moment. How brilliant is that? Love it. How brilliant are our queer and trans people that they’re figuring this shit out in real time, in real life. So when I think about how does it impact our lives, one, it gives me endless amounts of hope to see the creativity Yeah. And strategy of our people, but also it helps us just rethink things that we were already taught and we just took for granted or we discarded because a lot of people would discard prayer as like, ugh, that thing that Christians do, but her focus on it as a meditative focusing practice to figure out what is our work in this time?

3 (27m 9s):
That’s a very different orientation to spending some time in prayer than going before God and asking for your like honey do list. Right? So that’s what I would say. That’s my short answer. Yeah.

1 (27m 20s):
Yeah. It makes me think of Laverne Cox’s idea, like a possibility model, but like, not just like on the, on the scale of a famous person, right? But like here, because like, I don’t know, like I’m not gonna be on a Netflix TV show, but like I, right. But I could perhaps like reimagine prayer for myself or I could like, I’m also probably not gonna start a start a UCC church in in Second Life, but like, they, like it turns something in you right about sort of like, oh, like what, what other possibilities are there? Whether you’re like a pastor or just like a person in the pew or someone who’s like no longer at church. And so I, I love all of that like inspiration. And so

3 (27m 56s):
It also helps you connect better to what’s going on in the world around you because we often have feedback loops that just tell us the same things we already know over and over and again in this echo chamber. And so getting outside of that to feel and hear what others’ lived experiences are from a very different position and how they engage with that and what things like radical self-love looks like is a brilliant study in how do I be ready to be a member of a global society because I will encounter people who are different than me, or maybe I will encounter someone with chronic pain even if that’s not my experience. So listening to somebody talk from a theological position and a position of faith around chronic pain is a really helpful entree into being like, okay, I know enough about this little thing that I would know how to engage with somebody if I met them at my church, at my kids’ school in the community.

3 (28m 53s):
And that is also such good practice in this moment where we’re taught to be more and more isolated.

1 (28m 59s):
Yeah, I know it’s really easy to like the algorithms and the feeds and the like in 24 7 news cycle, like everything is so terrible. The world is on fire And I, And I like not that the world is not on fire, right? Like it absolutely is. But I think, I think that like sometimes like progressive folks are leftist focused, it’s really easy to like only see all the stuff that’s like going wrong and there wasn’t all of the effects that need to need to happen. And so like I, I think it’s like so important for us to all stay plugged into all of like the hope and the possibility and this not just possibility, but the things that are like actually happening. Because I think if I, yes, so I, I think I’ve like curated my algorithm such that like, I, I don’t like, like don’t get depressed by it because I just, the podcast that I listen to the news stories that I’m reading that like the organizers that I’m following, I’m like, there’s like so much amazing stuff going on in the world.

1 (29m 46s):
Like you don’t have to just rage tweet all day long. Like you can go be a part of something constructive. And I know we were talking about that a little bit before the show of, but like before we started recording was like, you know, lots of folks don’t need to go through the process of deconstruction and, and you know, what are these clever passage us saying, let’s talk about Sodom and Gomorrah all day long and, and that that’s important work. Like, and also we were, we’re talking about there’s, there’s more to it than that. There’s a sort of a like, like a constructive work. And so I think that’s like a little bit of what Reverend Sex is doing. And so can you talk a little bit more about like moving from deconstruction into like reconstruction and like Yeah.

1 (30m 27s):
Not just that, but also like really going there when it comes to, to sex and sexuality.

3 (30m 33s):
Yes. I would love to, I think it’s easy to get stuck in the deconstructive part because we really wanna know and understand what happened. And I really applaud folks who are brave enough to look, that’s the most important first step is what is actually true, what’s actually there and being able to face whatever reality is that you encounter after you, after you look at the text, after you look at your tradition, your family, et cetera. But the thing that makes me come alive is what do we do based on all of that that we know to be true? What, what is the way of being in the world that isn’t just constantly being like, God loves us too, God loves everyone there that is, that has its role.

3 (31m 16s):
And for some of us that’s, that’s where we start. That’s as much as we can get out as just this clinging to this idea that God loves us also, which is not bad at all. And there’s a maturing in the faith that allows us to be more expansive. Because if we weren’t taught all of that terrible shit to start with, there is so much other basis of queer God. And that’s kind of where Reverend sex work comes in. So I go by Reverend Sex because I found that I kept talking with evangelical preachers in particular and we would start with the Bible and then we would start, then we would move, like once we addressed all the ber passage, us one by one in thorough detail, then we would move on to morality and goodness.

3 (32m 4s):
And then it would just be the progression at the end of the day. And I’m talking about many, many long multi-hour conversations. At the end of the day it was still panic around somebody is gonna treat my body, a man is gonna treat my body, how I as a cis man have treated or have been told I was allowed to treat other people’s bodies, whether that’s women’s bodies, children’s bodies, it’s about agency. And so I was like, if the panic is about Butt Sex, what if we just skipped the other stuff and went straight to the Butt Sex? Because we could talk about the Bible, we could talk about morality or we could just get to the thing that is actually why you are clinging to this so tightly, which is what if a gay man flirts with me?

3 (32m 49s):
And it’s like, well why don’t we just start there? What if a gay man flirts with you, what kind of theology, what kind of belief do we need to have in practice so that you straight cis man have bodily autonomy and agency to be able to say, thank you so much, I’m not interested, I’m not gay, or whatever the other million things that you could politely say and move it along, what would it, what would we need? Right? And then we’re talking about the good stuff now we’re talking about bodily autonomy. Now we’re talking about the right of bodies to be well to be informed. We’re talking about consent, all these words that I literally never heard growing up. So I just use reverence, sex as this shortcut to say, I’m willing to talk about the things you’re most scared to talk about.

3 (33m 34s):
You wanna talk about masturbation, you wanna talk about orgasms? The number of women I’ve talked to who are scared to masturbate because they think God will condemn them, send a lightning strike down, aren’t satisfied by their husbands. I mean these are straight women that I’m talking to of many ages, like 50 sixties more by going by Reverend Sex, I’m kind of leading with this. I’m here to talk about those things. So you don’t need to be shy. So when we get in session, lots of people are willing to talk about lots of things because I’ve just laid it out there on the front line. So I use Reverend Sex, I use Audrey Lorde’s uses of the erotic as my primary source text and comparing this idea of the erotic energy that is in all of us as the Imago de and connecting with that source of power that is instilled in the spark of the divine that is within all of us as made in the image of the divine.

3 (34m 31s):
And using that to be like, okay, if we start here, what’s possible? Because just look outside. Like just think about the types of plants. Even if you’re not a plant person, think about the types of teas, just the types of teas that you can drink or the flowers like I truly believe, I didn’t come up with someone else said it, but I truly believe that God’s orientation is much more drag queen than anything else. Because some of the colors in the same flowers, you have oranges and pinks and reds and purples, like the world is so full of difference and diversity and wildly creative things that I’m like, if you start from that position, God made this world, this earth, this cosmos, and it has everything from black holes to wooly worms, right?

3 (35m 18s):
And everything in between. We actually as queer and trans people are very normal. I know that’s a bad one for some normal, yeah. But we actually fit in really, really well here. What doesn’t make sense is that God would create these very rigid boxes that people are supposed to stuff themselves in. And anything other than that is bad there. There’s no proof of that anywhere around us in all of creation from plants to animals, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s kind of the orientation of the constructive theology is what happens if we start by knowing God through what God has created, where do we as queer and trans people fit in? Where do we see shame or not shame? And then from there we can see the constructs of white Christian Supremacy for what they are, which is instilled ways of thinking and frameworks to try to control us in different forms.

1 (36m 5s):
Yeah. Oh man. When you were saying like at the end of an eight hour day, people are like, what are we? But like Butt Sex is like gross, I feel like. Like, oh man, I like, I think the two big things I took away from my time with the equality, right? Having like hundreds and hundreds of these conversations was like, oh, it almost always, if you just keep digging, it comes down to like, but the parts just don’t fit. Or like, I don’t know, that seems kind of weird to me. You’re like, ooh. And so like you gotta like, you gotta address the like the ooh at some point. Yes. And that people think that they want, the other thing that I like figured out was that like people think that they want like academic dissertations, which like they do oftentimes. And also the thing that’s gonna like move people is like stories.

1 (36m 48s):
Like it’s the, the Bible is not, yes, there’s like some tical laws in there, but the Bible is mostly stories. Like that’s how we humans like transmit values and meaning. And so like, yes, I’m like we gotta skip breaking down Leviticus and like get into like let’s talk about sex like and and relationships and consent and autonomy. And it’s also like why Queer Theology is like it, it’s not just for queer people, right? It benefits like straight people too. Yeah. Because like we can break, it’s an oppo, it’s an invitation to like break up these conversations and be like, for straight CI men, for straight women, for like straight relationships. Like there’s just so, so much, so much bigger. And so I love

3 (37m 27s):
Invitation. Absolutely. I actually think that that’s part of why God created us is that for those of us who have to deal with our gender and sexuality in order to survive. And let me be clear that not all of us do survive. Yeah. But for those of us who make it to the other side of that very hard soul searching difficult process, we have something to teach everybody else because we have lived through what it means to come to terms with our own beings, our own desire, our own truths, and find God on the other side. So I actually think that that’s a perfect place where there should be leadership amongst our community, not just for our community, but for the wider community.

3 (38m 8s):
And you know, you said earlier like what changes hearts and minds? And I would, And I started with talking about how we work on ourselves because that’s where we have the biggest fear of influence. But I wanna just wrap that up to circle back around to that by saying, when we are sure about what we know, whether that is me and God are okay, I can’t tell you the number, number of grandmothers who have been pacified and calmed by their queer and trans grandchildren saying, grandma, me and Jesus are okay. Like I promise we’re okay. It’s like at the end of the day, if someone loves you, they want you to be well with yourself, with Jesus, with God, with whoever.

3 (38m 48s):
And doing that soul searching work does that. And so I would say the thing that changes the most hearts to minds, at least in my experience, is me claiming my own truth about my body, about my desire, about my life, and about God of being like, I have a prayer life. Me and God are good. We talk a lot. We have some very difficult and beautiful and affirming conversations. And that work I think is actually the hearts and minds work. But we have to, we have to have done the soul searching and had the community support to be able to get there, to be able to say, this is what I know to be true about myself, and this is what I know to be true about my relationship with God.

1 (39m 24s):
Yeah. Amen. And And I, I see sometimes, like in our work, L-G-B-T-Q Christians will be like, well I, I’ve like repaired my relationship with God and Jesus and so like, I just like wanna make sure that everyone else hears the good news about Jesus. Like, I want my partner to become Christian. Or like, maybe they’ve like, it’s okay to be gay, but like you still have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. And so I think that there’s also like some work that I know, like when I talk about my work, like it, it often comes up like at gay clubs, at gay beaches, I mean people who are like not ostensibly religious. That’s fun. It’s delightful. And like, I think that like people, I don’t, I dunno what people imagine, but like, and the ways that people like light up, like they don’t necessarily wanna go to church.

1 (40m 5s):
They might not even ever like wanna pray or God, but just like a, the idea that someone is like going to places and talking about come chops and communion in the same sentence is like, oh my God, that’s yes, that’s possible. But also like, oh, well maybe if I can see this dance floor as like something sacred like that, that like jives with me. Like yes. And so like I think there’s also an element of like deconstruction, reconstruction of sort of like what works for you, like might not be what works for some other queer person and, and to like finding all so the the different ways that people like might access the divine.

3 (40m 41s):
Yes. Brian, thank you for bringing that to the fore. It’s so true. And it’s so important because I will also do work with a, with a group called the Sexual Liberation Collective. And we’re working with sex workers, sex healers, sex educators, and the folks, I mean, I would say my primary ministry with that group of people is the kink community within queer and trans world. And that includes sex parties and other forms of expression. And we do writing workshops. It’s all kinds of really fun and interesting things. Many of the things that other people would be like, even queer people will be like, Ooh, this makes me a little uncomfortable.

3 (41m 24s):
Right? And so doing some of that own work, even those of us who feel like we’re marginalized or on the outskirts to understand well how if the divine is actually in everyone and in everything, where might God show up? And what if that include things like the bedroom or what if that included things like BDSM kind of engagements, like those kinds of things feel so alive and potent and so right for the possibility of connecting with the divine. If we get out of our own way without having to stuff God, this is the thing we tell. We get told that we’re supposed to be stuffed into these tiny little boxes, and then we turn around and do the same thing with God and try to stuff God in these tiny little boxes and be like, why couldn’t God be in a sex party?

3 (42m 9s):
Why couldn’t God be interested in pain and pleasure? And what that has to do with each other? Like, all these things are possible. Let me tell you, if you never thought about it before, it is possible. And some of our deconstructive work, knowing how religion has been used to hurt us, is understanding how other pieces of that same religion might be being used to hurt others and not perpetuate that same harm against others. Even if it’s a slightly different flavor or texture or with different words or with different marginal identities.

1 (42m 38s):
Oh my God, you, this is, we can’t do a whole other something on this because I, I touch upon like kink and pain and submission in my book Lovey Monogamy. But like it’s about yes, not monogamy most, more generally. And so like, but I’m like, oh, there’s like, there’s another book in me about like, just about kink and faith and it’s like, it’s rich absolutely richly.

3 (42m 58s):
I think kink theology has stuff to teach all of us actually because just the work consent, I never once heard that in all of my years of church. And even now in progressive Christianity, I don’t hear it very often. And the, the ideas and the scenes of the construction that, of imagination that happens in kink communities, I think those of us who are working out in the wider world for social justice and change could really take a lesson from that level of creativity, world building, construction, all of that kind of stuff. And I do a, a writing workshop called Jesus is a Power bottom. And

1 (43m 37s):
I love that

3 (43m 39s):
It’s, it’s a really fun workshop. But basically what it does for, for folks is it takes the relationship of how you see your relationship to God and then it switches the roles of the scene and says, well what if God played a different role? What if you played a different role? What if that role was sexual? Like how might that engagement feel and look and change what’s in your body in terms of your ability to connect with God? Because as one of the brilliant participants of the first time I did the workshop said is like God is just, this was a pk, so a pastor’s kid, and she was like, it just feels like God’s an evil Sky daddy sometimes. And sometimes that’s fine, but other times that’s not fine.

3 (44m 20s):
And it really stuck with me of like, what happens when we take God out of that evil Sky Daddy role and actually engage with God as a real entity. So we have a lot of fun, but it’s also about doing some of that deep deconstructive work in an embodied way.

1 (44m 38s):
Yeah. Okay. So talking about workshops makes me, makes me wonder if, if folks are late listening at home, what are like various ways other than obviously the podcast that folks can either like get plugged into, learn about support, be a part of experience, your work, y’all’s work, either you’re work or soulforce worker? Both.

3 (44m 56s):
Yeah. Well, on my website, reverend sex.com, you can, it says Find me at church or something like that. And it often has where I will be preaching next or where I’ll be, we do conference circuits, so you’ll find us at places like Creating Change sometimes if you hit those kinds of places. Or Wild Goose Festival in North Carolina where I’m from. And then I would just say, check us out on social media soulforce org or if you speak Spanish at robot for the Spanish language stuff. We do lots of workshops. I think on the horizon we’ll do a community cohort kind of class around the upcoming book, which is on spiritual violence.

3 (45m 37s):
And its different forums. And so we often will do a community course. When we did it in Spanish, we had a community course that had like a hundred folks from 10 different countries that kind of came together reflecting on their experiences, learning some of this new vocabulary like spiritual terrorism or spiritual trauma and then moving from there. So just stay tuned. There’s so many different places to plug in.

1 (45m 59s):
I love it. And I always like to ask folks like, what’s, what’s coming down next? And so can you share a little bit more about, about this, this upcoming book?

3 (46m 6s):
Yeah, I’d love to, well, we’ll have another season of, in English and it will be centered around some of the folks who contributed for this book project, which is called Spiritual Violence and Religious Phenomena that defile the Faith. And it’s a US adaptation of a book that we put out a few years ago in Spanish that we did a whole Latin American tour and it identifies white Christian Supremacy, spiritual violence, spiritual terrorism, religious abuse and spiritual trauma. So for folks who are hearing those words for the first time and they don’t quite sure how they go together and what that means, it’s a book that has somatic practices.

3 (46m 49s):
If you feel that in your body, it has surveys of, you might have been a target of this kind of violence, if these things have happened to you or you’ve experienced them, it has intellect for those of us who are sapiosexual has the intellectual theory parts that we dive deep on what these concepts mean. And then there’s some space to engage with real people’s case studies of real lived experience, real people’s lived experiences that explain that idea or that that framework a little bit more for each of those five concepts. So that’s coming out in January. We’ll be doing lots of things around that, around those issues, how it connects with Latinx communities, how it connects with gender and sexuality.

3 (47m 30s):
And folks should look very much look forward to that.

1 (47m 33s):
I love it so much. And so for folks wanna connect with you on Instagram, you’re Reverend Sex, Reverend Sex over there. Any other, any other places that folks should be connecting with you

3 (47m 44s):
At Sexual Sex Lib, co Sexual Liberation Collective, sex Lib co or soulforce org all together, those are the places where you’ll find us on social media and we’re out and about a lot actually. So you should get on our Soulforce newsletter. We send one a month. It’s not a overload of emails, but it gives you a look into things, it gives you all the latest connects to the podcast or other things that we’ve done that you have access to from your home.

1 (48m 13s):
Also if, if you give money every now and then you’ll get something in the mail. I got like some really sweet art not not too long ago from y’all on like a postcard or a magnet or something. Yeah. That I have in my fridge. So that and and, okay, so let’s, now that the, now that the logistics are out of the way, we like to close by asking like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy?

3 (48m 31s):
Ooh, so much joy. So much joy. I’m doing this series called Love Letters with Reverend Sex, which I was a little bit strong armed into doing. They’re shorts, 15 to 30 minute reflections. And even though it, it was hard to get me to say yes, it’s been bringing me so much joy to revisit some of the things that I was taught as a young person. And looking back decades later, I just completed my 10th anniversary of ordained ministry. So you know, almost 20 years of digging into these kinds of things and going to school for them. And it was, it’s been a real joy to kind of circle back and be like, oh, the Rapture was a big deal growing up.

3 (49m 15s):
The Left Behind series really impacted me. I don’t know if you were paying attention, Brian, but in many parts of the world that we were supposed to have rapture happen, not twice, but three or four times. Just this past fall.

1 (49m 28s):
Yeah,

3 (49m 29s):
Yeah. So, So just circling back and being like it, searching my own heart and spirit and being like, what is true about that for me now? And how do we engage in conversations that can be healing for others? Because that, for example, was a hugely traumatic thing for me when I was a young person. So being able to see, oh, we do heal over time, we do this work and it’s hard and we do land in a different place that’s more loving and more open and more ourselves. And that brings me a lot of hope. ’cause I’m a very stubborn person, so it’s hard change is hard for me.

1 (50m 2s):
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for being here, Alba. It’s been a delightful conversation and hopefully the first of many.

3 (50m 9s):
Yes, what a pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. I’m so happy to be here.

5 (50m 13s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (50m 22s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

5 (50m 30s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post Butt Sex, Baptism, and the Divine with Rev. Alba Onofrio appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Learn more about Margot at https://www.margotdouaihy.com/ 
• Buy her books: https://www.margotdouaihy.com/scorched-grace 
• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community/

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we have a special guest, Margot Dhe, And I cannot wait for you to hear this interview. Margot is the author of one of my favorite trilogies of books, the sister holiday series. It’s an incredible, incredible series, and we’re gonna talk a lot more about that on the podcast this week.

(54s):
And in general, I just think you’re gonna love this conversation with Margot. So here is Margot’s official bio, and then we will jump into the interview. Margot dw, he lives in North Hampton, Massachusetts and is a professor of creative writing at Emerson College. She’s the author of the award-winning nationally bestselling Sister Holiday series. In addition to the poetry collections Bandit Queen, The Runaway Story of Belle Starr, Scranton Lace and Girls Like You, Her debut Mystery Scorched Grace, won the Pinkly Prize in crime fiction and was named a Best Crime Novel of the Year by the New York Times Guardian and others. Welcome, Margot. Welcome to the Cariology Podcast. I am so, so thrilled to have you here.

(1m 36s):
It’s gonna be so fun. Thank You. Thank you so much. I am just a huge admirer and fan of yours and thank you. The community that you nurture and care take with and among and co-create. I just think we need more, more community and kind of affirmation of Queer Theology and just expansive ways of thinking about the structures that give us comfort and grace Yeah. In life. And I’ll say it, especially now. Yeah. So yeah, I’m, I’m just very grateful for the work that you do, Shea. Well, Thank you. Appreciate that. And likewise, likewise.

(2m 17s):
And we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk about the, what do we do now a little bit later, but I, I would love to maybe start out with, for folks who are not familiar with you and your work, we’re gonna talk about the sister holiday series here in just a minute. But I, I’m wondering if you can maybe just share a little bit about your life and also maybe, maybe a bit about your spiritual journey, however, however that makes sense for you. Absolutely. So I currently live in Northampton, Massachusetts, but I’m from Scranton, Pennsylvania. And it’s really hard to talk about my life as a, as an artist, as an educator, or even my aesthetic without my religious upbringing and my spiritual life.

(2m 60s):
And that’s connected to my ethnic heritage. I’m third generation Lebanese American, and our church was also our family kind of community heartbeat. So I grew up in the Maronite Catholic Church. So that is the Catholicism of Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and the diaspora. It is campier than a Roman Catholic mass, I would say. Which, just saying something. It’s just saying there’s, it’s longer, there’s more gold, there’s more drama.

(3m 40s):
And we have these murals in our church, St. Ann’s of, in West Granton, of just, so, it’s just this incredible merger of the semiotics of the Middle East, cedar trees, Lebanon and Jesus Christ, and all of our saints. And it’s like the, you know, really fascinating. It was always really interesting to me. I apologize, my cat is also crying in the background part, part of my spiritual journey. I grew up just utterly fascinated by the, the world of just knowing there’s something greater, bigger that we don’t see, you know, the nice creed, what is all that is seen and unseen, that there’s always this, not even shadow side, But we are not alone.

(4m 31s):
You know, we have this kind of greater connectivity in the, it’s both exterior and interior in the connective tissue. And so growing up, it was just a huge part of my life. You know, I went to Catholic school and my teachers were nuns. And so there were all these just facets of my epistemology of like learning about what I thought I knew that were shaped by Catholicism, and not just Catholicism, but a really kind of intense discipline, like almost a disciplined, quite dogmatic take on Catholicism. ’cause these, the lines of it trace back to like the crusades.

(5m 15s):
So people like expanding the word out to, you know, all these areas and protecting kind of a very strict vision of Catholicism. And so also alongside of my fascination and what I thought was incredibly elegant and beautiful, and also carnal and dian and weird, and, you know, in noir in many ways of like sitting in a pew and seeing the, you know, body of Christ and thinking like about murder and murder mysteries and greater mysteries in the ways that they nest. But was also realizing that I was queer. And so that was not acceptable, you know, all of the things that you could just sort of like input into Gen X, you know, growing up in the Rust Belt.

(6m 4s):
And so I moved away from attending mass every week, you know, in, in sort of my, I guess, late twenties, thirties. But I’ve never considered myself non-religious, even though I don’t have the kind of freedom that I sort of used to have. It’s a little slippery and porous. There’s a lot of kind of porosity around it because I’ve never excised that really personal relationship that I’ve had with faith. And also the fact that I turn to Catholicism in ways that are really so instinctual, they’re almost pre-verbal.

(6m 45s):
Mm. And that’s always fascinated me too. I try to stay curious about it. And so merging all of that and all of those like influences and my deep, deep, deep love of mystery fiction and mystery narratives and the ways that they kind of invite you to puzzle through a space and time with someone. And so I knew I always wanted to write a mystery series, And I thought, who, how can I recast the typical hard boiled, hard-nosed kind of insider, outsider, obsessive investigator in a radically feminist and re comparatively religious lens?

(7m 30s):
And so Sister Holiday was born, she, the character is a 33, starts as a 33-year-old nun who makes a countercultural move to go from Brooklyn in sort of like this out and wild fun life. And she’s in a, you know, post punk riot girl band. And she makes a move to here’s my cat bear, to part of our Queer Theology to join a convent, the Sisters of the Sublime Blood in New Orleans. And so she, you know, puts herself in these put of investigation and her spirituality, her reli deep, deep religious faith.

(8m 13s):
She is pious, she is, you know, liberation theologists. So I wanted to create a transgressive interiority that felt really real to me and textured. So she’ll think of, you know, bikini kill lyrics or lunatics in the same breath as like, you know, Exodus or the Ians or, you know, various gospels Yeah. That they’re braided together and they’re not, so that we don’t have to choose how we kind of move through the world, that it’s just very much merged merger. Yeah. So she doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to a whole lot of people who believe that life functions better with like tidy categories and silos and partitions, and they could be only one thing in the world.

(9m 1s):
And so she is a mystery to herself. She’s a mystery to, you know, the sisters in her convent. ’cause you know, she’s, she’s tattooed stem to stern. She has to wear gloves and, and a scarf to, to cover her tattoos, to put the focus on the work and on the sacred and on God and not on herself. And so she’s been a really fun character to write. She’s been a really reparative character for me to write. And in many ways gives me just so much more appreciation for the nuns that I grew up with. Who are my teachers, who are my mentors. And always, I don’t want to curse on this podcast, but like, you know, no, you can a bad just badass feminists that prefigured my understanding of second wave feminism and even third wave.

(9m 47s):
So, And I import a lot of that, a little bit’s exaggerated, but it’s authentically true. So in the convent, the sisters, they don’t drive, they walk everywhere. They grow their own food. They’re anti-capitalist. They are, they minister at the prison, the prison birth project, you know, praying and playing music with people who have either just given birth or about to. And that was inspired by a lot of the social justice work that the Catholic nuns that I knew growing up were not only deeply invested in, but leaders, they were leaders in this work were reparations, community solidarity, mutual aid, like Catholic nuns.

(10m 34s):
You know what I’m saying? Yeah. You know, yes. It’s not that. But then at the same turn, it’s not monolithic. We have the res schools, you know, native American communities in which nuns are really colluded with the era of identities. And so all of these different facets kind of fed my interest in creating a mystery series. And particularly a very gritty r rated noir inflected mystery series led by a genuinely devout none who was also very, very idiosyncratic. Yeah. So long way of, of introducing you all to me and, and to this character of Sister Holiday.

(11m 14s):
Yeah, no, that’s so great. So yeah, so the first two books in the series are Out Scorched Grace and Blessed Water. And I gotta say, like this book is all of my niche interests wrapped in one. It felt like if someone was writing a mystery series just for me. So it’s, it’s been such a gift to spend time with Sister Holiday. I wanna pull out two different threads if we can, of course, specifically debut mystery series, start with and like kind of detective novels and not all of that, because like I am a huge fan of that genre and also often feel bad about my love of that genre because it’s so, yes.

(11m 56s):
You know, law enforcement and propaganda and kind of a often like law enforcement acting outside of the law to bring vengeance and what they would call justice, which is like not always justice. And so I’m wondering if you can just talk a little bit about like, wrestling with that genre and then bringing Right, this queer sensibility. Because, because the other piece of, of many mystery novels is that queer and trans folks are often the victims, right? Like queer or the, or the bad guys or the whatever, where we end up being cast in the kind of negative light.

(12m 37s):
And so you, you not only have this, this queer person who is the protagonist of the novel, I don’t, I wouldn’t say she’s always the hero, but at least like aiming towards heroics maybe and working within the genre conventions. Like how, how were you thinking about that as you engaged in this work? Well, fellow fan here, fellow genre fan. So I see you And I hear you on that. I’m a fan first. You know, as always

(13m 11s):
A mochi moment from Sadie who writes, I’m not crying, you’re crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi, because I didn’t have to convince him I needed a GLP one. He understood And I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I’m Myra Ammo, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit join mochi.com. Sadie is a mochi member compensated for her story.

(13m 41s):
And it’s true, there are so many of the kind of bestselling titles really propagate that a type of old formula that in many ways keeps it very tidy and straightforward, that there’s a good guy, quote unquote good guy and a bad guy. And there’s one recipe for satisfactory resolution. And I completely see the almost inverse of that. I think mysteries to me about asking questions, yes, about getting satisfactory, delicious feelings at the end that feel satisfactory in terms of the narrative, but really pushing and testing the boundaries and even the very questions of that undergird at all, what is justice?

(14m 26s):
What is criminality? What’s the crime behind the crime when folks make decisions? And then, you know, are, have to face the consequences of those decisions. When did it start? When did all of that start? Where are the structural institutions that in many ways actually create the conditions for combustibility and criminality, and why are they never brought into the question and equation of justice? And when we queer work and when we queer the conversation, we expand it, we test it, we contest it, so it all becomes a contested territory. And the, the mysteries that I love the most kind of are, they offer that familiar deliciousness within the mystery of like, ooh, clues and red herrings, and what’s a vital clue versus what is a misdirection and someone we can deeply invest in.

(15m 25s):
And you know, certainly in this case we have the anti-hero, flawed individual, but hopefully someone that, you know, you wanna follow into these bizarre situations. And so I love mysteries for the fact that we, when queer and trans authors, and I’m part of a really wonderful community, we’d love to share with your, your, the folks watching called Queer Crime Writers. And so, you know, Robin Geiger’s, brilliant series of legal thrillers based on her 30 plus years as an attorney. And the protagonist of her books is a trans woman whose name is Aaron McCabe.

(16m 6s):
And so, you know, bringing in all of these life experiences into like, so folks that read John Grham and Scott Ot, like will love her books, and we have this incredible, beautiful, rigorous trans lens that’s like shaping it. It’s, it’s just so perfect. So I see mysteries as an ideal place in many ways to, you know, ask really big questions, but keep it entertaining, keep it gripping. And, And I think it, the markets shows us, like readers want the new, within the familiar, they wanna know like, okay, if I’m going to the genre section or I’m watching a mystery on like, there’s certain little hallmarks I wanna hit.

(16m 46s):
But I think the more we can bring bigger and kind of more on, I guess, unique questions and nuanced questions about justice and injustice, authority, agency, authenticity, gaslighting, who gets to create the story that we live in, who’s taking up real estate in our head and why, you know, who leverages deception and affect to gaslight millions of people to vote for them. You know, these are questions that queer and trans writer writers are asking all the time. And then in a mystery space, we get all of that with like, as sumptuous clue engagement.

(17m 31s):
And so I love it for that. And I, you know, I still see, still see, like if I sit on a panel at Thriller Fest, you know, with former cops and detectives, it’s sometimes interesting to see the power dynamics. You know, and having said that, a good friend of mine is a former prison warden. I just blurbed his book, James LAIs. And his work is what you would consider like classically propulsive and really reparative in asking also these big questions. So I think we’re seeing changes for sure in the mystery and crime fiction space, still have a ton of work to do, but I think it’s more important now than ever for, for queer and trans people and the crime writers of color, for example, which was yeah.

(18m 19s):
Like, you know, a big force in the scene. But more than ever we need, you know, new and fresh Voices. Yeah, yeah. Kind of piggybacking off of that, I, I’m curious as to your take on how, how subversion of gen genre can help to like, shift our minds and how we’re thinking about things. So, so again, like thinking in, in the prison and law and justice space, where many of us, I think I’ll speak like many white folks, have ideas right? About how the system works, how it should work, that may or may not be reality for people of color for Yeah.

(19m 2s):
Women and poor communities for indigenous folks, right? So I, I’m curious if you can just talk a little bit about how you maybe think genre and subverting genre and playing in genre can help us to, to reframe how we think about systems and, and maybe live into new ways of being. Does that question make sense? Oh, Of course. And it’s actually something I think about and invest in all the time. I believe that the art that we read and write not only reflects or should reflect the lives that we lead in our multicultural reality, but also I think influences new ways of thinking, new discussions.

(19m 44s):
So I think it’s this actually this kind of loop that’s quite self-contained, where the more we wanna seek expression and the more we express, the more new pathways open up for paradigms for thinking. And so, and there’s a lot of, you know, interesting theory if folks wanna read it, you know, there’s an interesting essay by literary theorist toter of called the origins of genre. And it’s, its main kind of argument is that genres or sub genres are new way, you know, forms of art are basically concretized by societal needs.

(20m 30s):
So for example, thinking like one example, Gillian Flynn’s Gone Girl came out in 2012 and is sort of spawned this new movement and crime narratives where their, you know, marriages get blown up and w you know, wives disappear themselves for various reasons to expand on their agency. And the, the sort of current is we want this, we wanna talk about this. Mm. We are living these lives. It is not so easy or sile to say that there’s one way to be in this world. That there’s one way to do gender, that there’s one way to do marriage, that there’s one way to learn.

(21m 14s):
We are, you know, we say multitudes. And so I think your question is spot on where subverting and reimagining tropes is giving new life, giving, helping people feel seen, which in turn lends to the next generation new voltage, new spaces to be, to be seen. And empathy where we can say, oh, you know what? I don’t know about that. Like, I’ve never, you know, you know, met a lesbian or something, but like, maybe I’ll through reading, I’m like, oh, I can hold space in this moment. Take that and apply it.

(21m 55s):
You know? So I believe it’s, I think that art is actually crucial. It’s not a privilege that, you know, it is a privilege of course, but I actually think it’s the stuff of life to keep kind of a way of, yeah. A way of thinking, a way of, of being in the world that is forward thinking and, you know, really kind of sacred actually. Yeah. Yeah. I, I wanna ask about desire and sublimation of desire and desire in religious spaces and in queer spaces. ’cause you have this right, really fascinating character in Sister Holiday, who is a young woman who chooses to take a vow of celibacy and join and join this, this convent.

(22m 43s):
And I imagine that some queer folks listening might be like, upset by that, nervous about that. Like what are, like, what, what is this saying about queer desire and, and yeah, and, and the rightness of queerness, like within religious structures. And so I’m just wondering if you can talk about that a little bit. Oh, absolutely. I’ve had many conversations on this topic, And I think it’s great. I think it’s, you know, contested territory and there’s, you know, I think it’s wonderful. I love it if hey, love it or hate it. Just for me, the worst is if there’s no opinion, you know, or like, oh, what I, maybe I read it, I don’t remember.

(23m 27s):
So I think for me, you know, desire and, and again, you know, thinking about the passion of Christ and even the etymology of the ways that we understand that word, passion and suffering and desire, they, they bleed out. And they, And I wanted to, in many ways also noir asks us to think about things that, that lift off the page and they, they’ve moved beyond their contained spaces and they almost can deform and reform and all that stuff. So for me, I wanted desire to be for Sister Holiday, something that propels her forward and sets her back.

(24m 9s):
I want that kind of carnal lust that she has, you know, for her, the sort of ex love of her life, Nina as well as her contemporary Rosemary Flynn, to be a way of seeing herself and of feeling all of herself, and also something she has to continually question and, you know, keep alive. And I think that for some people it might seem like completely paradoxical to have this woman say, yes, I am like proudly lesbian And I am celibate. But I think there’s just something that there’s, when there’s something that doesn’t make logical sense and it can make authentic sense, I am in, I’m interested in investigating that.

(24m 57s):
And I think that plays out in a variety of different ways. It’s like, I’m also trying to explore what it means to take a vow. So she’s on this path to take permanent vows for a lifetime, you know, of devotion in a way that gives her complete access. So I think for the character, desire is part of that, part of the path for her. And so, so it’s sublimated in some ways, it’s deeply, you know, rolled around in another ways. And more than anything, I’m just, I think I’m trying to create a, a character who has misbeliefs about herself, and she has, like, that I think is part of her unraveling of the mysteries and solving of the mysteries.

(25m 45s):
So it’s like continually, like there’s the who done it or the why done it, you know, and divine ruin is, it’s a, a drug ring. You know, there’s like, each book has its own kind of ecosystem of crime and mystery. And for her it’s, you know, where, where also does need versus want kind of splinter. And that is, you know, not to make my answer cr too crazily long, but it’s also about addiction and asking about, I don’t know how we understand ourselves in moments of kind of when we’re in love and also feeling like, you know, within ourselves and then also outside of ourselves.

(26m 27s):
So it’s a multifaceted kind of multivalent quality that I want her to just richly, richly, richly explore in every kind of possible way. Yeah. And also like the things that give us pleasure in life, food, her friendships, like with Revo or Bernard or her brother and the world of New Orleans, like plucking a plumb off of the tree. And the ways that in, in some of the nuns that I’ve read a lot about, like Sister Simone Campbell and Sister Helen PreOn talk a lot about fire and lust and desire, and they talk about St.

(27m 11s):
Augustine’s, you know, relationship to that as well. I just, again, I just kind of go back to it. It’s not just one thing. Right. And I think people, different people have different ways of kind of living out that truth. Yeah. And so I wanted the character to play with that too. Yeah. And I will say as a reader, one of the things that I loved about Sister Holiday is that I never had a sense that she was wrestling with the rightness of her queerness, right? Like, it, that wasn’t a part of it. It was a, how, how am I gonna embody this in the world? And like, what does that look like for me to do in a healthy way? And, and asking them all of these questions around that. But it wasn’t a, I’m gonna, I’m gonna like, like that, that she still had doubts about whether her queerness was okay.

(27m 59s):
And so I really appreciated that because I think that sometimes, And I I’m saying that because I think that sometimes people will pick up a book like this and be like, oh yeah, there’s gonna be a we that weird conversion therapy narrative. And that is not what’s happening here. Which I really appreciated. I really appreciated that there was like, she’s such a nuanced and interesting character in both her queerness and her religiosity, which I really, really Appreciate. Thank You. Yeah. Thank you for, for pointing that out. I, and for feeling that. And in many ways it’s like, and she jokes about it. She’s like, I’m a lesbian separatist, you know, if anything, and she plays with that, like the sort of lesbian lethario kind of character and as well as sort of like, again, the hard boiled jerk who’s like into the, the hot dames and like whiskey and that’s, that’s like her, yeah.

(28m 50s):
And so the cigarette and just the attitude and the brio is like, this is like the most lesbian character you would ever meet. And she’s hell of it. Wow. So I’m, you know, that, that really interests me too. And I also wanted to sort of take a pile driver to those notions of, again, like the ruling religious authorities that say what you can be and who you can be and who you cannot be depending on what your belief set is. Yeah. Sort of like an exact counter argument to that dogma.

(29m 31s):
And I get some, you know, I get a lot of folks that are like, oh, I’m a lapse cat Catholic and I’m queer, And I love this, this heals me. Thank you. And also folks saying like, no, she would, you know, it’s like a lot of debate about if you were truly to take a permanent vow, like all this stuff. But for, for me and for this character, her queerness is holiness, queerness is a, and to be queer and trans to be in the community is actually a promise of something better. To me, it’s the kind of a sense of like worship of possibility and hope. And I, you know, she has to defend that a lot in the books.

(30m 14s):
Yeah. Yeah. The same way we have to defend that. Yeah. I have, I have two questions more about this series. One is, I, I’m curious, you know, you’re talking about the cigarette and earlier, you know, bikini Keel and kind of the, the riot girl scene. I, I’m wondering if you can talk about the aesthetics of, of punk and Riot Girl and the aesthetics of Catholicism and, and honestly like of New Orleans and like how you thought about bringing all of that together. I think they were in an incredible conversation. Yes, Yes. The aesthetics of, you know, I’ve always, as I mentioned before, always had this vibe that Catholicism was kind of inherently noir because we wrestle with this question of, of kind of original sin.

(31m 7s):
And in noir all characters are fallen. And there’s a, you know, while I don’t, that’s not the guiding principle of the book, it’s like there are these questions of, if we’re all, we’re all together in this moment of trying to understand who we are, that there’s actually just something really special and pressurized and sacred about that. But the beauty and the theatricality and the maximalism of being in a Catholic church on Christmas at midnight, mass, I don’t know, it could get more kind of queer and theatrical and camp than that I’ve always felt seen in those spaces with like the, the dripping flowers and, and incense kind of knocking me out.

(31m 60s):
And in punk where you’re just kind of a sweaty col one of many, like a, a a thumb, you know, a collection of like bodies kind of worshiping the, the experience of art. You know? So whether it’s just like, and in for folks who don’t like, know punk or even post-punk and Riot Girl, it’s like, check out some videos of X-ray specs or bikini kill and like, just lat gray, whatever. But like, just some of those early groups where like people are just gathering in like basements and like gross venues and even like bedrooms and stripped down or just like, sorry, it’s like a pilgrimage.

(32m 48s):
A sense of power. A sense of power and community. And I feel that it’s like, whether it’s church upon a post punk feminist, like mosh pit, I don’t know. There’s just, there’s a lot of overlap for me authentically that I feel is like, so it just gives me so much power. Mm. Yeah. And, you know, comfort in a way of understanding a very, very hard world. Yeah. And, And I was, I was also really thinking about this community, right? This community of nuns and Sisters in the Sister holiday series, which is a, a very small community, right?

(33m 30s):
Which many we’re seeing, I think that across Catholicism, right, many of the, many of the communities of sisters are aging and shrinking. And to have this very small community that an outsider comes into, but also wants to join it, it just made me think a lot about community and how we’re forming community and how, how community works when we don’t all agree. And I wonder if, if you can say, just say a little bit about what, you know, why you chose to, to invent this tiny community of sisters in New Orleans and, and what the smallness of the group says and does.

(34m 17s):
Definitely. That’s another great question and one that is ever so pertinent right now, but it’s just like little, this little order there are at the start, there are four. And, you know, they talk about how at the height there were, you know, dozens. And that mirrors my own experience kind of growing up and seeing churches either combine or just shed congregants or clothes altogether. And then similarly, when certain sisters, you know, die that the, the ants kind of close. And so there’s just tho those trends that I think are on the macro context, but for me it was like, there’s so much truth in the LGBT community about found family.

(35m 2s):
And so many ways I thought the sisterhood of the Sisters of this blend blood could be a model for a different kind of a found family that also echoes the sisterhood of holidays band, you know, back in Brooklyn where there’s a lot of infighting and, you know, almost not like the opposite of group think and different personalities, distinct personalities, but can agree on a shared value, a shared greater purpose, something bigger to invest in, and, but also in a way that can hopefully use the beauty and glory of diversity to strengthen, not diminish.

(35m 50s):
And so in some ways it’s like allegorical, but it was also really fun to write all of these sisters to get, you know, and it’s just really fun to write. It’s really fun to hang out with these women and, and also explore their own paths. And in some ways I wanted to counter the erasure of nuns. They don’t often get the spotlight, you know, it’s like the pope and the bishops and archbishops. And I wanted to, in some ways, offer a counter narrative to that erasure too. Yeah, yeah. No problem. I’d love to zoom out a little bit and, and ask, you know, we are in, we are living in interesting times to put, to put not to find a point on it.

(36m 35s):
And I, I’ve been seeing a lot of narratives lately, even from artists saying, you know, art doesn’t change anything. And, and it wasn’t a why bother or we should stop creating, but there, there was this kind of sense of like, we should know that maybe a, a right sizing of the impact of artists, which I have some strong opinions about. But I’m, I’m curious for you, you know, like in this time, for you, what is the role of the artist and, and how are you thinking about art making in these times? At the risk of, again, sounding redundant, I just don’t think it’s ever been more important to stay close to the forces and the moments that give us a sense of who we are.

(37m 29s):
So comfort in a book that sweeps us away or entertains us, characters that shake us up, that stay with us. Beauty of slow moments. Like I just, last night my wife And I saw the new Kelly Reihart film called the Mastermind. It’s a, her aesthetic is like slow cinema. It was so slow and just, oh, it was almost just fetishizing moment to moment interactions. Art to me is about asking who are we? Who are we? What is why? You know?

(38m 9s):
And in many ways it’s these religious questions as well, like the divine mysteries and art is that direct portal in, it’s like, it’s direct injection of a way to explore the world, be with the world, be curious about the world, get weird about it, and in ourselves. And it’s, it can stay with us. I mean, I’m sure you, you know, you’re an artist yourself, like writing scripts and like the films that stay with us, the, the characters and the moments, and we might not understand why. And then like 20 years later we’re like, oh my gosh. Like, I think we once chatted about Terminator two. You know, I’m like, like the glory of, that’s why pop culture matters.

(38m 55s):
Art matters, subverting tropes matters, queer and trans art making matters. You know, the like more inclusive, like, we get, I think the, again, more kind of ju jumper cables to the soul. I think we get strength from art and art making. It gives us like a sense of purpose in a very, very chaotic, tyrannical, terrifying time. So I always think when I feel overwhelmed and which is daily, we could sit down and write something, even a line. It calms my nervous system.

(39m 36s):
It helps me like remember what matters in a way that is very real and embodied. And then when I read, you know, read something, it’s from your soul, into my soul, yes, from like one mind into my mind, but it’s actually very sacred. I think art is, is a sacred, sacred endeavor. And so I just think it’s more important, and maybe right sizing is in, it’s interesting to think about for sure. But I think in terms of gaslighting, tyrannical, author, author authoritarian narratives and affect, I think we can counter that with storytelling.

(40m 22s):
I think that’s really it. We’re in a quote unquote post fact moment, which is horrifying. So what do we do with that? Yeah, more art, more storytelling, storytelling that can break through. What does that mean? I don’t know. Keep it weird. Keep it authentic. I, I, I think my belief in it is more, more powerful than ever. And yet, you know, I, I’m not saying that I think like books are gonna get out of, get us out of an apocalypse, but like anything else, I just, it’s each individual person and how do we reach, you know, the individual soul through that soul work, you know?

(41m 10s):
Yeah. I, I’m curious, you know, as you’re, as you’re working with students right now and, and they’re experiencing overwhelm or like, how do I write at a time like this? What are, what are the things that you’re telling them? And many of them are so distraught in the same way that I am. The first I I say is I am with you. And we’ve always had our challenges and problems. We live in an extremely imperfect society with power structures and systems that incentivize greed and vice. You know? And now we’re in a moment of, instead of virtue signaling, virtue signaling, it’s vice signaling.

(41m 53s):
So who can be, you know, kind of more aggressive and incendiary, et cetera. So the first is like, I, I’m with you a hundred percent and that I understand this moment. And so I think my, my response is to say, how can the anxieties or the fear that you’re, you’re living through right now be channeled into the work that you’re creating? How can you, you know, be with it and not abandon yourself and allow this space to be one of empowerment, curiosity, fuel companion.

(42m 36s):
You know, we’re never alone. If there’s a book around, we’re never alone. We have, we’re with somebody, we’re in somebody’s head. You know, we, it’s somebody reading, being in sister holidays head, me being in someone else’s, you know? So I, I offer that to the students as well. And I, it’s the easiest question in the world to say, you know, what’s a book that’s changed the course of your life? And they’re like, rattling off, you know, a billion books. It’s like, okay, well now you are, you are part of this living ecosystem. You will be one of the books that then somebody else in a few years says, that book brought me back into myself.

(43m 23s):
That, that, that character is living in my head forever. And so it’s, it’s again, that I kind of a belief, belief in the fact that we’re all kind of creating something that will live, outlive us as well. Like our books and our art. They outlive us. Yes. I wanna close by, you know, traditionally when we do interviews, we ask, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy lately? And so if you wanna answer that, great. But also I wanna ask, what’s one thing that is bringing you hope lately? Moments like this, moments like this and the fact that when you step outside of the social media corners, quote unquote, and the, you know, the glowing rectangle that is like forever bringing attention downward that just, we’re, we’re human animals.

(44m 21s):
And we are, I think, beautifully kind of raw and vulnerable in the ways that humans have always been. And that’s also the, that’s also hope because the joy is real. You know, the like at five minutes of a spontaneous dance party with, with friends is like the most electrifying thing in the world. And so that the ability to just take a walk with somebody and be reminded of the kind of sacred beauty that is just moment to moment awareness and also, you know, wonderfully subversive books.

(45m 4s):
And, and again, I’m gonna point to Robin ge legal thrillers with just the, that the success of the series, you know, named New York Times Best Crime Novel of the Year, the her last book. That gives me so much hope that, you know, when it comes down to it, that people want, you know, we wanna, we wanna move towards, towards healing and the light, and that we can still hold space for that in all of our, our messy contradictions. Well, thank you so much for being here. I I wanna tell folks to again, go out and get the Sister holiday series, the third book in the series, divine Ruin comes out in January, January 13th, 2026.

(45m 51s):
The first two books are out now. And so, like, this is a great time. If you haven’t read the series to go pick up the first two and then you won’t have the wait, so the third one, because it’ll be ready for you. And so yes, get these, get these series. And thank you so much for taking the time to, to talk today and to, to share your heart and, and where your head is at. This has been a really lovely conversation. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com.

(46m 33s):
You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

The post Lesbian Nuns, Punk Rock, and God with Margot Douaihy appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Learn more about Angela Herrington at https://angelajherrington.com/ 
• Buy Embracing the Old Witch in the Woods: Liberating Feminine Wisdom from Christian Patriarchy by Angela Herrington
• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community/

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we have a special guest in Angela Harrington. I’m really excited for you to hear this conversation. So, here’s a little bit about Angela before we jump in. For over a decade, Angela Harrington has helped women break free from the grip of Christian patriarchy and reconnect with the wisdom they were taught to silence. She is a trauma informed coach, strategist, and author who has walked alongside thousands through deconstruction, spiritual burnout, and the messy beautiful work of building a life that feels whole and true.

2 (1m 3s):
Her work brings together spiritual insight, nervous system awareness, and grounded practices that create lasting change. So let’s get into it. Welcome, Angela. Well, Angela, welcome back to the podcast. I’m so thrilled to have you back to talk about your new book. Thanks for being here.

3 (1m 19s):
Yeah, thanks for having me.

2 (1m 21s):
So it’s been, it’s been, I think, probably at least a year, maybe even more since we had you on to, to talk about your first book. And I, I’m wondering for, for folks who missed that interview, we’re gonna link it in the show notes, but would you just tell us just a brief, brief bit about your first book and maybe anything that you’ve noticed in, in the time since that book came out?

3 (1m 47s):
Yeah. So the first book really honed in on supporting people who already constructing, deconstructing your faith without losing yourself was just really timely and, and really important for me. And I think that it served, I think it served as a guide for a lot of people who weren’t sure if, if they wanted to hang onto their faith or not hang onto their faith, but they were sure that they were tired of people telling them what they should and shouldn’t believe. Right? Like, there’s just a lot of, yeah, deconstruction is fine as long as you don’t lose your faith or you don’t give up these core tenants. And so when I wrote that book, my, my goal was really to provide a container and some really valuable questions for people just to sit with and chew on.

3 (2m 35s):
So it, it, it helps people with deconstruction. It talks about sort of some steps that you can take, maybe some stages that you can go through, but it’s not a Google Map 12 step program, because that’s not what deconstruction is. So really, really rooted in curiosity. Lots of questions I joke about, you know, this is the kind of book you may wanna throw across the room a couple times, and that’s fine. Go ahead, do what you gotta do, but I’m here to support you, not to give you all the answers that I think you should have. And that’s, that’s kind of the, the Tldr r version of the book.

2 (3m 11s):
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. And now, now you’ve written your second book, which is Embracing the Old Witch in the Woods, Liberating Feminine Wisdom from Christian Patriarchy. It came out in October for, yeah. And before we even dive into what that book is, I, I’m curious for you why that felt, why this book felt like the next thing to write after, after your book about deconstruction. Like, what was the journey that led you from writing about deconstruction to really diving into this, to this next topic?

3 (3m 50s):
Yeah, so this book really, I, I don’t wanna say it’s part two of the first book, but it, it does feel like it’s on a continuum. It does feel like it’s time to go deeper with these conversations about Christian patriarchy, because I think that we can only deconstruct so far without really getting into this sort of Christian nationalism, Christian patriarchy. I mean, those are, you know, practically twins, right? Really getting into that conversation about how it has shaped culture, but more importantly, how it, it has shaped us internally. So a lot of my clients who were going through safety construction or who were just, you know, trying to sort out who they were and, and how to get over some limiting beliefs we’re always shocked to, to really dig into how much of the, the negativity and the doubt and everything was learned.

3 (4m 44s):
And, and that’s really one of the things that I think everybody in deconstruction, I think goes through those conversations of like, okay, what have I learned? What have I unlearn? This book goes much, much deeper into talking about feminine wisdom and, and women in general and kind of, you know, historically how femininity has been seen in the church and how it has been corrupted and twisted in ways that then just, I mean, we’re, we’re literally holding ourselves back because of what we believe. And when I say we, you know, men, women, queer folks, non-binary folks, all of us are, are exposed to these tropes and these horrible stereotypes about gender.

3 (5m 30s):
And there’s so much that’s wrong with to that’s wrong with society today that is really rooted in this idea that, that masculinity is valuable and strong and powerful, and femininity is weak and dangerous and needs to be colonized. It needs to be controlled and co-opted, and that’s what’s holy. Rather than saying no, actually there, the, it’s not binary. It’s not that forced binary. There’s good in all of us, there is messiness in all of us. There is strength and weakness in all of us, and really tapping into what it actually means to lean on feminine wisdom outside of this sort of co-opted view of, you know, sitting quietly raising kids, like kind of the proverbs.

3 (6m 16s):
Even Proverbs 31 is a little, you know, that gets a little twisted into kind of a trad wifes type thing. But we just saying, okay, if we, if we can pull back a little bit from the mythology of, of Christian patriarchy, what’s actually true and, and how would we have lived had we not been swimming in that pond of this toxic religious system? And that sort of, so again, it’s, it’s not necessarily like book one, book two sort of chapters or, or volumes, but it’s very deeply connected to the work that I’ve done over the last decade or so as a coach and just saying, where are we getting stuck and, and what do we need to call out from inside of us that is learned behavior?

3 (7m 3s):
But it just has happened for so long that it feels natural and it feels like it’s part of us.

2 (7m 8s):
Hmm. Yeah, man, there’s so much I wanna dive in. I, but I, I feel like, I feel like the first question I have to ask, you know, this podcast of mostly probably queer listeners, probably lots of trans and non-binary folks who might be feeling nervous, right? About talking about femininity and feminine wisdom as opposed to masculinity and masculine wisdom. So like, how do you, can you maybe just define how are you talking and thinking about those terms? You mentioned it’s not a binary, but I feel like anytime we talk about feminine masculine, people are already like, but it, you’re talking about it in a binary way, And I know that you are not doing that, but like, you know Yeah.

2 (7m 55s):
For anyone who might be feeling nervous about that, can you just talk about that a little bit?

3 (7m 60s):
Yeah, absolutely. First of all, that nervousness is totally valid. Like our society kind of crap right now, having conversations that are nuanced and that are fluid. So I, so first of all, yeah, like, just take a deep breath and know that you’re not overreacting. Like you’re not overreacting at all. That’s a, that’s a natural valid response to the world that we live in. For me, when I talk about mothering, when I talk about feminine wisdom, when I talk about these terms that are, you know, Christian patriarchy, typically genders in a certain way kind of skews in a certain way. I’m talking about feminine wisdom from an archetypal perspective.

3 (8m 40s):
And so if that’s, if that’s something that’s new, we’ll talk, I’m sure we’ll talk about a little bit here, But we go into the book a little bit more about what that means. And it’s, it’s more, it’s so funny because I think, I think that that talking about feminine wisdom is probably one of the most egalitarian conversations we can have if we can get back to its truest self. So when I talk about women, you are who you say you are, right? Like you, you know, it’s not, I’m not gatekeeping that, And I, I hope that anyone who hears this feels safe enough that they’re not trying to justify who they are or, you know, where they fit into some sort of manmade spectrum as far as gender goes.

3 (9m 28s):
Because feminine wisdom’s in all of us, you know, even, even even the most masked people walking around in our life right now, there is feminine wisdom that’s there too. And I think part of the, part of the nervousness, part of that uncertainty and that question of, you know, is this a safe space to, to talk about gender comes from the hate of all things feminine, right? Because this hyper false idol of some sort of, you know, unattainable masculinity is like the thing that we’re told is the most powerful, the most sacred, the most godly, like yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, anything that’s not, that kind of gets looked down on.

3 (10m 14s):
And there are different degrees, right? Intersectionality is real. We can talk about lots of different overlapping layers, but there’s like, you fit that, like you’re inside the circle of Christian patriarchy’s definition of men, or you’re outside. And from my perspective, that is, that’s just, that’s a method of control more than observation of people. It’s not rooted in science. It’s not even really ru rooted in Theology or, or philosophy or ancient wisdom. So wisdom, I’m, I hope that there’s no pressure coming from me when I say women or when I say feminine to, to fit into somebody else’s box of what that means.

2 (10m 58s):
Hmm. Yeah. And I wonder, yeah. Talk. Can you talk a little bit more about the idea of archetypes? I I think that the archetypal language, it’s so fascinating to me, and it’s so interesting. Yeah. You know, like your book is so much of an echo of, of my, no one taught me how to be a man. And, and in that I’m talking about like Iron John and Robert Bly, which is also like, so much about the archetypes. And, And I, and we have so much, I think, inherited wisdom around gendered expectations that are, that are both like, can be really beautiful and also like really weird. So I wondering if you can talk about that.

3 (11m 39s):
Yeah. I think for me, the big difference between sort of the, the framework that most of us know and the archetypal frameworks is that there’s not these hard delineated containers, right? There’s not these hard lines. So for example, with women, a lot of times we sort of have this, we talk about feminine archetypes. We sort of have this arc that’s age related, but it’s, it, it’s not like, oh, it’s not like in Christianity where you’re like, oh, you’re a maiden, you’re a virgin, you haven’t had sex, you’re not married. You’re a completely different human being with different value than people who have had sex that are the same age, right?

3 (12m 20s):
It’s not, it’s, it’s not, it’s just not as judgy as that, right? It’s not as controlled as some of these really tight-fisted conversations that, that are driven by unhealthy religious systems. So the archetypes, we have the mother, we have the maiden, the crone, which the, the old witch in the Woods, we talk in the book, the Crone, that’s who she is, right? She’s the, the older woman who a lot of times is full, full of wisdom, but not necessarily valued by our society, and is therefore a little bit of an outcast. An outcast. But she’s also kind of okay with being an outcast. And she’s ornery and she’s like, you know what?

3 (13m 1s):
I don’t have to chase your approval. I am who I am. And like, I think there’s so much beauty and strength in that that is really, I don’t know it right now. The world is just bonkers, like, just irrational, right? Like, I, like they, there’s just so much that doesn’t make sense. And for me, I think looking at these archetypes and saying, okay, these seasons have existed for as long as people have existed, and these, these archetypes, both the, the masculine and the feminine have been woven throughout all of our stories throughout all time. So no matter how hard the church, the unhealthy aspects of the church are trying to obliterate them, they’re still there.

3 (13m 47s):
Which means we can still tap into the pieces that, that give us strength. And not just the grown, but you know, there’s a wild woman, you know, sometimes she’s called the sorceress. There’s a wild woman, there’s a maiden. There’s a lot of different stages. And I especially think people who’ve grown up in these really cult like high control religious spaces, you can go back and tap into the stages that you missed. Especially doing some inner child work and, and doing some, you know, just navigating things again that you would’ve had access to stages of, of archetypal femininity that you would’ve had access to, had that oppression not been there.

3 (14m 28s):
So it’s a, it’s fascinating. It’s really easy to nerd out. I’m actually having a really hard time like cring it down because you And I always have such deep conversations, I’m like, oh, we could talk about this for three days. But there’s other stuff to talk about too. So

2 (14m 44s):
I, what about like, going back And I that experienced in my own life both as like someone who grew up in a high control religious space, but also as someone who like grew up queer and trans in that space without language for it, and who then transitioned a little bit later, right? Is this real deep sense often of feeling like I’m behind, I’m behind other people, I’m behind where I should be Yeah. And, or that I’ve like missed out, right? I missed out on, I don’t know, the normal high school experience, not that looking back I’m like, I don’t think I would’ve wanted that.

2 (15m 26s):
But, but there is this sense sometimes of like, oh, I, I feel like I, I feel like I missed out. And I, I feel like that’s probably an experience that a lot of the people that you talk with and work with have also experienced. Yeah. And so I’m wondering it, can you just riff on that, that experience a little bit more and, and what, how you’ve kind of coached people through that?

3 (15m 51s):
Yeah. I, I think what I think right now, when we talk about resilience and we talk about navigating the world today, it is really, really, really important to be aware of those pieces that we missed. Because nourishment that we missed creates usually creates tender spaces. And tender spaces are scary, right? Tender spaces, especially when, when they’re getting stepped on. But we don’t know why, and we don’t know why they hurt so bad. And like how many times have we said, oh, I’m overreacting, or, oh, I just wish I could not be so emotional or not be whatever.

3 (16m 33s):
A lot of times those are the tender spaces where we needed nurturing and we didn’t get it. Or where, you know, certain normal, like you said, normal experiences, air quotes, where those listed on the podcast, normal experiences didn’t happen. And we didn’t get that learning from those experiences that maybe our peers got, or, you know, maybe people who had a different support system got. And the reason that that’s important to resilience is because we are in a season where most of us aren’t gonna get our needs met. And I hate saying that I wish to God it wasn’t true, but I, I think that that is a fair statement, especially for people in, in marginalized groups.

3 (17m 19s):
I have a but ton of privilege And I will absolutely acknowledge that. I also live in the Midwest in a really conservative, lots of fundamentalist religion around me in that kind of space. So, you know, I, I don’t have a, a progressive coffee shop with a bookstore that I could go sit at and find like-minded people. There’s, you know, there’s one an hour or two away, but I’m not gonna be able to just go have that community that nourishes me and, and, you know, helps anchor me in hard times. So what that means is I’m gonna have to be really conscientious about caring for my tender spaces in ways that maybe in a less crazy time I would be able to lean on community more.

3 (18m 7s):
’cause a lot of us are really tapped out, right? My friends who are activists, we’ve had this conversation all year long. Like, there’s just so much. There are so many needs. And so if, especially if we we’re kind of in a place of privilege where we have some resources, it may not feel good to, to lean on people and to ask for support from people who are caring a lot more than us. And so our activism is figuring out what we missed, figuring out those tender spaces and learning how to nurture and care for ourselves in a way that allows us to, to self sustain so that we can shoulder things for other people.

3 (18m 50s):
And we have to be really careful, right? Like, I, I, if we’re doing work on ourselves for other people, we’re probably still tangled up in some of that. Oh, it has to be productive to be worth time. Otherwise it’s just selfish. But healing is not selfish. It’s not, you know, it’s essential. And if we’re in a place where growing up we, we didn’t get some of the things that we needed, or maybe we did, maybe we had a fantastic childhood, but then we had a couple years that were just catastrophic and, and created a lot of trauma in our life. And we have a lot of tenderness from that.

3 (19m 30s):
Okay, well let’s, let’s figure out how to go back and connect with the us in that moment that just needs some love. And again, just doing it from a place of I deserve this, doing this from a place of healing and presence rather than like, oh, I gotta heal these things that are negative at me. ’cause then I can go save the world. You know? That’s that internalized, like, gotta be productive all the time, white saviorism kind of thing. And we just have to learn how to check out from that because it’s exhausting.

2 (20m 7s):
Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I know that for a lot of folks, again, who grew up in kind of high control religious spaces, the idea of, of intuition, right? Of trusting ourselves Yeah. Is something that we’re very much encouraged against, right? Yeah. Trusting yourself is the, you know, the root of everything, evil and bad. And so as we start to do this healing work as, or as we deepen in this healing work, what, how, how, how would you talk about intuition and this idea, you know, in your book is wisdom, I think often talked about as a, as a more bodily intuitive wisdom Yeah.

2 (20m 54s):
As opposed to an external wisdom. Can, can you just talk a little bit about, about that and also like how folks maybe start to get over the fear of, of leaning into that, that wisdom as opposed to a wisdom that comes from outside of us?

3 (21m 12s):
Yeah, and you absolutely hit the nail on the head. Feminine wisdom is embodied, right? It, it’s, it’s very, very challenging to stay connected to all the different aspects. To stay connected to your, to your physical body, to stay connected to your curiosity, to those, those tender emotions that a lot of times we’re told are junk. And we need to just get over it. Your intuition, your soul, like all of these different parts, they’re, they’re more connected than, than what we’re led to believe. And so when we’re taught in these religious spaces to just shut off that part of us and shut off this part over here, and well, if you’re a dude, you can trust that part.

3 (21m 54s):
But if you’re a woman, you better put it away. And you know, the people who are saying that, like, in their mind, non-binary folks don’t even exist. So that, again, it goes back to this very rigid, like, here’s the parts of you that are valuable and productive. Here’s the parts that aren’t, and you need to do something about it. But in all actuality, you can’t separate us out that way. Like, you can’t separate your brain and your heart. It doesn’t work. Like, I mean, maybe in some sci-fi movies it works, but when we’re talking about day-to-day living, I had a therapist a long time ago who I was actually my therapist, and she said, you can absolutely shut out the bad stuff.

3 (22m 36s):
You can repress the old stuff that hurt. You can, like, you can do all of that, but you need to know that when you do that, you’re also blocking out the good. And not just memories, but like feelings, emotions, levels of connectedness with, with people. So when we’re thinking about all of these different pieces, anytime that we’re separated from our body, anytime that we’re separated can be complicated. Anytime we’re disconnected, anytime we’re disregarding our body, we’re easier to control and to confuse and to exploit. Because those, the intuition, those gut sense of like, Hmm, maybe something’s wrong here.

3 (23m 17s):
Or maybe, maybe that, I dunno, that I like what that person is saying. Maybe I should take a step back. Like those voices get shut down when we’re not embodied, when our nervous system is activated. Think of a fight flight, and there’s a whole bunch of other words that go in there. But for simplicity’s sake, fight, fight, fawn and freeze. Right? If you’re being chased by a bear, honest to goodness, your emotions in that moment don’t really matter. We need all of the energy pumping. We need all the adrenaline, we need our oxygen flowing, like all those things. ’cause we need to get away from the bear. But if we’re walking down the street and we see somebody in a, you know, in a hat or something that has slurs on it, that’s probably not the same as the bear.

3 (24m 7s):
And so we, it’s good to have a reaction, but if we’re always walking around like we’re running from a bear, then there’s like 75% of our brain and our intuition and the rest of our body that we’re just ignoring like it’s offline because our nervous system is so activated. And I, I, I wanna put a little asterisk by this, because the more marginalized you are, the, you know, the, the more of the, the Venn diagram of marginalization, the more circles that you’re within, the less safe the world is, and the more likely you are going to need to be, your nervous system’s gonna need to react a little faster and be a little edgier.

3 (24m 54s):
And, and that’s not overreacting. Okay? So what I’m talking about is there are safe spaces and there are sometimes things that, that are learned behaviors so that even in safe spaces we’re not fully embodied, right? Our nervous system being activated in some ways is kind of a disembodied process because again, our body’s like trying to save us from the bear. So what happens if most of the time we are not in safe spaces, and maybe we’re not running from the bear, but we’re like, Ooh, the bear was here before, I need to be careful.

3 (25m 35s):
We’re spend, that just means we’re spending the majority of our time in this hyper arousal and we’re not fully connected to all of our bodies. So reclaiming feminine wisdom, again, not, not within gender boundaries, but like just all of us, a big part of reclaiming feminine wisdom is understanding that those feminine aspects of our body, those parts of us that we’ve been told, were the fall of mankind, right? Like, all of those things, like those parts of us are sacred too. And even if no one else in the entire world is going to hold space for us embodied, and in our most full self, we can learn how to, and for some people, you, your body might be the only safe place you have in the entire world.

3 (26m 24s):
And it breaks my heart to say that, but I think it’s, I think it’s that level of brutal honesty that we really need to be talking about and, and really understanding what’s at stake if we can’t figure out how to be embodied and how to reclaim these things that we’ve always been told are bad, but are just as sacred as, as the things we’ve been told are good.

2 (26m 48s):
Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna go back to the archetypes for a minute. Yeah. Unless you maybe nerd out a little bit more. I, I’m wondering if you can talk us through each of the archetypes, obviously with like, not giving away your whole book because people should go and buy it, but like, what is maybe one, one thing from each of the archetypes that we could learn or should be paying attention to, or, you know, like for, for folks who are just totally new to archetypes, right? I think that a lot of that feels a little like, what, what are we even talking about? So like yeah. If you just really bring it down to something tangible.

3 (27m 28s):
Yeah. So the, the archetypes, so here’s what’s interesting is the archetypes are a little bit different depending on your source, depending on what you’re looking at. There are slightly different names and they’re slightly different. I mean, there’s not like, it’s kinda like the Bible, right? Like, there’s not just like one translation. So I’m gonna take a little bit of a step back and what I, what I think is the most helpful, rather than getting too overly nerdy on like what each of them are and what we can draw is, is to think of them as a continuum, right? So we have, you know, you have the maiden, you have the child, you have these kind of young, innocent, playful, curious seasons, if you will, you know, there archetypes, But we could also talk about them as seasons of life in a way.

3 (28m 14s):
Mm. And all of the archetypes are always present, but there are just some seasons where, you know, different ones come to the forefront. And so if maybe you’re one of those people who just didn’t have play as a child, and especially women in, in high control religions, like you might’ve been seven years old and taking on the role of raising your siblings and doing all these things where you are being treated like an adult, reconnecting with that child is gonna be really, really essential because you’ll be able to love on yourself in ways that you always should have been loved on. And you’re like, well, how do I do that? Well, maybe for you it’s blowing bubbles.

3 (28m 56s):
Maybe for you it is. Gosh, I had a client once who, it had been, she lived in Florida and it was thunderstorming the day we had our appointment. And she was, she’s like, you never gonna guess what happened. And I was like, oh my gosh, what is everything okay? And she said, I was just out there stomping in the mud puddles, And I came in And I didn’t even wipe my feet. I just tracked metal over the kitchen And I don’t actually care. That was healing, right? Something that simple was healing because that was not a space she was able ever able to be in. There’s also different stages of, like, we talk about mothering a lot, so I’m gonna come, I’m gonna come back to mothering. There’s a wild woman stage.

3 (29m 36s):
Like, who, like worry. Did you actually have permission to just, just be a little off the wall and try things that felt a little risky and like, you know, feel sexy and feel flirtatious and, and all of those things? Or was that off limits? Right? So in that case, maybe, maybe things need to get a little spicy. Maybe that’s the piece of the archetypes that you really wanna draw into your life. And again, it’s, it’s, it’s tapping into these, it’s reconnecting to these without shame. That is really kind of the secret sauce. Because a lot of us know that these are out there and we think about these desires, But we’ve been taught that they’re shameful. So we’re like, oh, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t listen to that spicy book.

3 (30m 20s):
I’ll, you know, that’ll ruin me. Or I can’t, you know, get like a little frisky and try, you know, ask my partner about trying new things because you know, I, the last thing I wanna do is I wanna let that evil into our bedroom. Like, there’s so much baggage, right? So that, I mean, that wild woman is another one. Mothering whoof. There’s a lot in this book about mothering and, and for me, again, mothering in the archetypal sense, it’s kind of like when we talk about feminine wisdom in the archetype sense, we’re not talking about like fundamentalist baptist culty mothering, okay, yeah. Christian patriarchy.

3 (31m 1s):
The more fun you go, the worse this is. Christian patriarchy doesn’t value mothers. It values what mothers produce. Hmm. And there are gonna be people that are like, whoa, that’s it. I gotta, I gotta shut the podcast off and chew on that for a little bit, right? When I’m talking about archetypal motherhood, the archetypal mother is the creator, is the nurturer. There’s so much junk. There’s just so I, there’s like probably a list of 500 things, all this baggage that we carry around, but the mother will not tolerate that, right?

3 (31m 44s):
Like, when, when we can tap into that mother archetype, we can be tender and compassionate with ourselves and also, you know, be a little firm and, and, you know, it’s, it’s not just like willy-nilly do whatever you want, but like, there’s that, that sense. The mother creates a sense of safety a lot of times that we didn’t have growing up. Or again, you know, maybe we had a growing up, But we didn’t have it in young adulthood. And so even for people who will have zero desire to carry children or are are unable to carry children or just aren’t even sure mothering is essential. It is, it is a, it is a love and a nourishing on a soul level and it’s fully embodied.

3 (32m 31s):
When you think about some of the matriarchs, you think about some of the activists that you see out there, there’s probably some, there’s probably some really strong, wise nurturing women who are in your community who are mothering even if they didn’t birth or raise children. So that one I think is really, really powerful right now. And then, you know, there’s others, but, but again, the, the old wish in the Woods, the crone, she knows who she is. She knows who she is. And, And I think that there’s a real fear of being ostracized that keeps a lot of us holding on to some of these old just toxic religious mythology of who we’re supposed to be.

3 (33m 18s):
And I am seeing a lot of people who are just over it. They’re like, you know what? I am I, they’re not gonna be happy with me anyway, so why am I trying? Right? And I think that again, for, for the most marginalized people groups, same thing. Like they’re, they’re oppressors aren’t gonna be your friends just because you try harder. That’s not a thing. But that’s what we’re taught, right? Like, just be better, try harder, all those things. The old witch in the Woods is like, screw it, I’m gonna go live in the Woods. And some of the best, like ba yaga, if you’ve never looked at ba yaga, ba yaga, iss a hoot dude.

3 (33m 58s):
She doesn’t give a crap. She’s usually ugly. She’s usually smelly. She lives in a house that has chicken legs. She’s kind of mischievous, And I wouldn’t say a trickster, but like, nobody’s gonna pull one over on her. I think that sounds pretty good. I dunno about the chicken legs. I’m a little weirded out by the house on chicken legs. But, but like, that’s who, that’s who you go to when you need something that’s like above and beyond what the average human can do. And to go with the metaphor again of the, the witch, like the beginning of the book, we start with this, this conversation about the witch trials never ended because it was never about witches.

3 (34m 39s):
It was about wise, powerful women who anchored their community. And if you wanna take over community and strip away all its resources and have absolute power, you go for the strongest people. You go for the healers, you go for people who were a threat to whatever it is that you were trying to indoctrinate. And, and it was, it was, you know, Protestant church, the Catholic church, like that’s where that panic came from. It’s powerful people who saw people who are powerful in a different way, who were able to resist. And holy moly, don’t we need that now?

3 (35m 19s):
Don’t, don’t we like, we can’t play the game of the powerful people because the deck is so far stacked against us. Like yeah, like you, you can’t, you’re not gonna be able to, to, to bet and win against the house. So what do you do? Well, you, you, you play a different game and you find resilience in ways that they can’t strip away. And that’s really what all of the archetypes are there. There are little pockets of strength and hope and compassion and all these other things that seem so rare right now that we can tap into and nurture in ourselves. And I promise they will spill out to others.

3 (36m 2s):
I agree. I still say that should not be our number one goal, But we can only give out what we have in us. And so that’s why the archetypes are so important to me.

2 (36m 12s):
Yeah. And I just wanna underline something that, that I think you’ve been saying throughout this and, and you say in the book too is like that these, these qualities are good for all of us no matter what your gender or how you identify, right? I think that so often, And I mean this, we talk about this all the time at Queer Theology, right? That that queerness and the lessons of queerness and transness are like good news and good for straight and cis people too, right? That there’s something deeply important about these things that isn’t just for women or queer folks or trans folks. Right? You know, I don’t, I don’t wanna center like men in this conversation, but I, but I am curious like what you think is the most vital tool or thing for people to kind of who are, who are interested in doing this work to grab onto who maybe like, don’t identify with the feminine or for for whom?

2 (37m 16s):
And, And I I think that’s not just men, right? Like I think that there are probably some women who are like, I dunno if I identify with like the idea of the feminine or femininity or whatever, which is like, not exactly what you’re talking about, but I’m just curious how you would answer that, that question for someone who’s like, I I I’m not sure quite yet where I’m finding myself in this and, and what, what is in there for me, I guess.

3 (37m 51s):
Yeah, no, that’s a great question because I, again, there’s so many definitions and stereotypes and, and, and things that are baked into our conversations that some of this is probably going to feel like it’s off limits or it’s not useful. Not that, not that anybody’s gatekeeping, but like, oh, I don’t actually wanna be more feminine. Okay. That defining it, that that way is rooted in that binary thinking. It’s rooted in that, that Christian patriarchal teaching of like, you’re either masculine or you’re feminine, but no, actually there, all of us, every single one of us has access to these different archetypes and these different energies.

3 (38m 36s):
And maybe even thinking about it as as masculine energy versus feminine energy, sometimes that’s helpful. I, I wrestle with using that language because that’s like the opposite end of the spectrum from the toxic Christian patriarchy type thing. It’s like this just toxic spirituality that is just like, well, you gotta be in your masculine energy. Like it’s still toxic, right? Yeah. ’cause it’s pushing us to, to the polar opposites, right? It’s like, you know, A is good, B is bad, that’s how we live. You gotta embrace your A and ignore the B and like, you know, fill, fill in the blanks there, depending on which motivational speaker you’re listening to at the time.

3 (39m 19s):
But really like, okay, so this is kind of a cheesy example, but what I, what I want you to think about is the, the archetypes that we’re talking about, I want you to think about it like air, okay, air is made up of a whole bunch of different components. And some of them we need, and some of them we don’t, But we still, we’re still swimming in it, like it’s still around us at all times. And so there are, that, that’s a better way to think about these different energies and these different archetypes is, you know, they’re always present. We all have access to them. There are times when I walk into a meeting where I’m definitely leaning more into some of my, what’s considered my masculine energy and attributes.

3 (40m 5s):
And that doesn’t mean that I’m less feminine right in, in the way that we talk about how I’m presenting because I’m still me, I might have a dress on, I, you know, I probably have shiny earrings and crazy hair and you know, really presenting as feminine because I am. But I can draw from these, these different molecules of, of who I am And I can, you know, I can just lean different directions and, and it’s, it’s actually really similar to gender fluid, but I just want people to be really careful about discounting the value of things because it’s not how they present.

3 (40m 47s):
Because you can present very masculine and still deeply be connected to feminine wisdom. It doesn’t show up externally. Like when we talk about presenting, it doesn’t show up that way In the same way, the opposite is also true. You can have someone who presents very femme, like loves, loves all the things, but, but walks in deep connection with the masculine energy and the masculine archetypes. So I, it’s, it’s, I don’t know, I’m really weird. I always use way too many metaphors, but it’s more of a salad bar than like a cut and dry.

3 (41m 29s):
You’re either this or you’re that. Well, some, some days I’m not. And what happens for me is sometimes when I get dysregulated, I lean, I lean way too hard into some of those sort of masculine traits. But that, like, I lean too far into what the, the Christian patriarchy says is masculine because that’s how I survived during some traumatic times. But that doesn’t mean I’m actually leaning into masculine energy, right? I’m still leaning, I’m still chasing that safety that the, the false system always told me would be there if I just found the right mix, right?

3 (42m 10s):
If I just suppressed my femininity enough, then I would be worthy of X, Y, z, trust, love, whatever it is. So it’s, it’s really challenging ’cause you’ve gotta hold like what you learned in one hand and then you, you hold what this new information is in the other hand, and sometimes they mash up a little bit and sometimes you’re just using the same words to describe two totally different things. Hmm. And that’s what happens with, with feminine and masculine a lot.

2 (42m 42s):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I’m wondering, as we’re getting close to wrapping up, up, what is your, if you had to pick your biggest hope or dream for this book and the message in this book, what, what would it be?

3 (43m 1s):
I think there’s, I think there’s two. Okay. The first is for the people who it is not for, okay. The people who don’t value the idea of equity and of healing. I hope it scares you off.

2 (43m 22s):
Like

3 (43m 23s):
I, I hope it, i, I hope that it is like something you turn off and walk away. Cool. Great. Maybe someday you’ll get there and that’s what I want for you. But today, isn’t it? So stay out of the communities that are ready, right? Like do less harm by going away. So there’s that, but you know, probably see that’s a little, this is a little spicy, but that’s the gen xer in me who still, still goes a little mama bear sometimes for the people who are reading it, for the people who are hungry. Like, I think my biggest hope is that it provides a container for you to learn how to care for you first to learn how to mother, whatever needs mothered.

3 (44m 13s):
Because even if you don’t ever go out and change the world, the world is better if you have figured out how to heal and to love those parts that maybe nobody else is loving right now. And I think that that is more than enough, especially in times like these, like love that if you can, like, you think about, think about, you know, maybe the stereotypical sitcom where the, the mom is tucking the kiddo in at bed, or the dad is tucking the kiddo in, and there’s just that sweet tender moment and, and you know that if it was real life, that kiddo is drifting off to sleep, feeling safe and loved and connected and embodied.

3 (44m 60s):
Like, I want you to learn how to do that for yourself and just be able to care for yourself that way so you get a good night’s sleep. ’cause God, we all need a good night’s sleep right now.

2 (45m 13s):
Yes. Amen. Amen.

3 (45m 14s):
Right.

2 (45m 18s):
Well, Angela, thank you so much for this conversation. Everyone needs to go out and get Embracing the Old Witch in the Woods, Liberating Feminine Wisdom from Christian Patriarchy. It is available now. You can get it wherever you buy your books. And Angela, if people wanna know more about you, dive deeper into your work, get more connected, where is the best place for them to do that?

3 (45m 39s):
Yeah, the best place is on my website, angela j harrington.com. I’m sure you’ll have it in the show notes. We’ll, I, I think if you’re finding yourself really curious about some of these topics, there’s a lot of blog posts that I’ve written that talk about ancestral healing. We didn’t even really get to talk about that, but like, ancestral healing, feminine wisdom, there’s just lots of good resources there and they don’t cost a penny and you can access ’em on your phone. So if, you know, maybe some of these topics aren’t safe at, at work or at home, like you can take the phone in the bathroom and read some of these articles and get some of the support that you need and just hopefully find that little, that little seed of hope that just tells you that maybe things are gonna be okay.

2 (46m 24s):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. It was always a pleasure to talk with you.

1 (46m 28s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for BTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (46m 37s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

1 (46m 44s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post Reclaiming the Wisdom That Christian Patriarchy Tried to Bury with Angela Herrington appeared first on Queer Theology.

It’s a New Year and in this first episode of 2026, we reflect on highlights from 2025. From book releases and big life transitions, to moves, new jobs, and shifting rhythms. What has kept us grounded has been our approach to goals and intentions that have evolved as needed. It’s why we keep saying rituals and intentions are important, y’all! Going into this year we feel that community matters more than ever. We also feel that it’s important to build more meaningful lives and one of the ways to start doing that is by naming our longings and goals. If you want some help with that, we’re bringing back the Queerness Every Day Challenge, a simple, daily practice to help you start the year with greater intention around spirituality, queerness, and connection.

Takeaways

• Shannon released two books in 2025, marking a significant achievement.
• Brian also published his first book, focusing on relationships and spirituality.
• Shannon transitioned to a full-time job, requiring adjustments in her routine.
• Both hosts emphasize the importance of setting intentions for the new year.
• They discuss the challenges of maintaining personal well-being amidst professional demands.
• Brian reflects on the importance of community and local connections.
• Shannon is focusing on improving her local community involvement in 2026.
• They explore different approaches to goal setting and personal growth.
• The conversation highlights the need for intentionality in daily life.
• The Queerness Every Day Challenge offers a way to reflect on spirituality and identity.

Chapters

00:00 Reflecting on 2025: Personal Highlights

02:27 Navigating New Beginnings: Career Changes and Adjustments

05:30 Intentions for 2026: Setting Goals and Priorities

08:12 Rituals and Reflections: New Year Practices

10:46 Community and Connection: Building Local Relationships

13:32 Creative Pursuits: Balancing Work and Passion

16:31 The Importance of Intentionality: Aligning Goals with Values

19:18 Embracing Change: Acknowledging Longings and Desires

21:59 The Queerness Every Day Challenge: A New Year Initiative

24:56 Looking Ahead: Future Plans and Community Engagement

Resources:

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community/

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

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0 (1m 25s):
Welcome

2 (1m 25s):
To the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy.

3 (1m 28s):
And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis,

2 (1m 33s):
Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

3 (1m 38s):
Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

2 (1m 48s):
Hello. Hello, hello. And happy New Year. It’s officially the first Sunday of 2026 and we are so excited to be back on the pod with you, Shannon. I don’t even know where to begin, but like I feel like so much has happened in the past year. I know, right? I guess like, for those listening at home, we’re gonna talk, we’re just gonna give like some highlights from our past year. We would love to hear some highlights from your past year. We’re gonna talk a little bit about like our intention, personal intentions, spiritual intentions, professional Intentions for the year ahead, those, and like then share some way, share a way that you might kick off the new year with some more intentionality. So Shannon, like highlights, it’s in 2025 for you.

2 (2m 29s):
Wow.

3 (2m 29s):
Yeah, it, it, it has been quite the year I had two books come out, which just feels kind of

2 (2m 36s):
The nuts to say.

3 (2m 37s):
Yeah. Right. And and some of that is, is funny because right by the time a book comes out you’ve been done working on it for forever and ever. So actually the bulk of the year was spent working on our book together, which of course will, will come out sometime this year. But I was really thrilled to release both. No one taught me how to be a man, what a trans man’s experience reveals about masculinity and also come and see, which is a young adult devotional in 2025. And, and both of those have been really fun. I had a great book launch for No one taught me how to be a man in Minneapolis at one of my favorite bookstores there called Moon Palace. And so all of that was, was really great.

3 (3m 17s):
And then, you know, something I haven’t really talked about publicly and can’t say too much about, but as I took a full time job and that has been quite an adjustment as you might imagine. I went from working primarily for myself for four or five years to working, well, it’s not quite a nine to five, but working, you know, a 40 hour a week for someone else. And so that, that has been a huge adjustment and just kind of getting used to what does that look like and, and how do I be intentional with my time? You know, as we’re talking about intentions, it’s, it’s been a real adjustment to figure out how do I not lose sight of the things that are important to me while I’m also doing this job That’s really important to me.

3 (4m 5s):
How do I like make sure that I’m making time to take care of myself? It’s, it’s been a journey of like learning how to sleep better and have a bedtime and cook for myself, right? Like all of these different things that have for the previous couple of years I haven’t really had to think about. And so, so that’s been a huge adjustment, but also it’s been, I, I’m doing some, some work that I’m really passionate about and that’s really beautiful. And so I’m, I’m grateful for that. And it feels now as we’re entering into a new year to be a little bit more settled. And so I, I’m excited to, to think more broadly about what my life and work and creative life looks like moving into 2026.

3 (4m 45s):
So that’s just a little bit of, of my 2025. What about for you? Yeah,

2 (4m 49s):
I mean I, it’s, I, it’s funny ’cause I, I also released a book, but until you said your book, so I guess I had kind of forgotten about, I mean at this point it was like three or four months ago, which doesn’t seem like that long ago. But like to your point, I finished writing it like over a year ago and it came out a year later. So that was like really exciting. It’s my first book. It’s, it’s about, it’s called Love Beyond Monogamy, what polyamory can teach you about or the wisdom of polyamory teach you about I don’t faith, relationships, spirituality, I, those three things in some order. The publisher changed in at the last minute and so I kinda quite remember it. So that was really exciting. And I, you know, obviously I’ve been talking about spirituality and sex and spirituality and polyamory for like, many, many years here.

2 (5m 34s):
And I just know that like for so many of us, like, like, I don’t know, like being a sexual person is like already fraught and then like being a queer person and having sex is like an extra level of like fraught. And for those of us who are like some version non non-monogamous, that’s an additional level of frt and you like put all of that through the meat grinder that is conservative Christianity or like even just sort of American culture, pop culture, purity culture. There’s just like levels of levels of levels of sort of like muck to wade through. But also I think on the other side, like so much, I don’t know, beauty, joy, connection, inspiration, grace, healing. And so I I, it was really cool to put that out into the world. Yeah. I also having like, you know, juggling this work with my relationship coaching practice, work with some part-time work and always trying to take care of myself, I, I think that, like I’ve, I’ve been in New York City now for over a whole year.

2 (6m 28s):
Wow. We’re back on the East coast and, and splitting our time between New York and Maryland. And so it’s, it’s wild to be back. It feels like some of our friends were like, it feels like you’ve been here for back for years. And that is true. And sometimes it also feels like we moved back like a few months ago. I’m not quite settled into my apartment, but, so there’s a lot of it sort of like finding routines, finding rhythms, like figuring out like where the trash can goes in the kitchen and like, we’re gonna reorganize our front closet and put shelves in instead of having stuff that’s like hanging and like what size would to buy and how do you cut the wood? And so there’s lots of sort of like logistics and like making a home. And I like, I I, I think that there’s like, it’s so easy to sort of like get swb up in the day to day of life that it, it’s sometimes hard for me to sort of like carve out the times to like figure out my sleep schedule and like set an alarm and go to bed on time.

2 (7m 19s):
Even it means like watching one less episode of, you know, Abbott Elementary to tonight. But I also know that like when I do have some intentionality, I get more fulfillment out of my life. And so I’m always sort of like struggling with this, not struggling, but trying to balance like planning and intentionality with like actually like living my life. And so I feel like I’m finding a good groove and I’m excited like to see what the year ahead holds ahead holds. And one big change is now that our book is finished being written, I’ve been able to sort of take on more and more relationship coaching clients because I’ve had some more time now. And so that’s been really exciting to get in the weeds and in the trenches with folks on a one-on-one basis and really help people, you know, build right fit relationships and sizzling sex lives that are like in line with our deepest values.

2 (8m 2s):
And so yeah, it’s been fun. That’s my 2025. Yeah,

3 (8m 6s):
It, it feels like, you know, both of us have had pretty big transitional moments this year, which of course I, I think are natural inflection points to, to rethink and reimagine what life could look like. And I, And I think, you know, when you go through something big, like starting a new job, moving to a new place, moving to a new city, right? And you, you get invited into that, but it, it does remind me how, you know, just like you were talking about, it’s like it’s easy to get into a rut or routine and have to like really be intentional about carving out time. I I think outside of major transition points, it can also be hard to like stop and take stock of are the things that I’m doing working, are the routines that I’m in like actually serving me?

3 (8m 56s):
Are they leading into the places that I wanna go? And I, And I know that like, I don’t know, people have all sorts of feelings about New year’s resolutions and goal setting and all of that stuff, but it does feel like no matter what your feelings about it, the new year is kind of a natural moment to at least take a breath and say, what do, what do I want out of my life? What do I want out of my year? What is working and what’s not working? And I know you And I have had various approaches to asking that question to Reflecting on that question, like end of year rituals, new year rituals, I like, where are you at with that these days?

3 (9m 36s):
Like how are you approaching asking those questions? What are your rituals around that and what are you kind of thinking about for 2026?

2 (9m 45s):
Yeah, I mean I think like historically for like most of my life up through like my, like early twenties, I somehow managed to dodge the, like lose 20 pounds, give up chocolate and soda, like make a million dollars, like New Year’s resolutions. And so probably like as I was like entering my adult post-college life and becoming a professional, I think at some point I started thinking through like goals for like the year or goals for like the next six months or for the season or whatever it might be. And I went through a period of having like, kind of like specific goals around like my career, whatever that meant, and friends and family and sex and partners and stuff like that.

2 (10m 29s):
And then at some point I was like, oh, this just feels like I’m productivity my life And I don’t like it. So I chucked that out the window. Like in my like mid to late twenties. My roommate at the time, she was like, she did this thing where she picked a word for the year, which I think now lots of people do it, but I had never heard of it before. What was my, I think my first word of the year might have been edit. So I sort of like pick a guiding word for the year. And I did that for a few years And I wanna say in like 2018 or 2019, I, I picked four, I picked structure, strength, structure, space, strength and stride. And then I, the next year I was like, I’m just gonna keep those. I don’t feel like I’ve quite gotten those, but those feel like good.

2 (11m 9s):
And I actually, I realized the other day I was like, well, I haven’t picked words of the year since then. Then the pandemic happened And I was like, survive. That’s like the word of, of the, that is like both the word of the year and the entirety of my new New Year’s resolutions, right? And also like going through like the death, the death of my friend and like another sort of like the second phase of my like breakup. Like there was just like, I don’t know, I, I just like maxed out of thinking about things. And over the past few years I’ve sort of like returned to, okay, I was noticing that I was going to work, I was doing the thing, I had friends, I was like seeing the people and like it was good. Like I have good friends. I enjoy, I enjoy the times I would go on a vacation once a year.

2 (11m 51s):
And also there was a sense of like, I, I think my friendships could be deeper. I’m like not feeling as connected with my spirituality as I would like maybe like, I think there could be like some more depth there. Like I’m not really exactly sure what I’m doing with like work. Like I really love our work at Queer Theology, but I feel like it could be better, we could reach more people, we could be more effective or efficient or like, whatever it might be. And so I started coming back to like, well what have I just like picked a few things to sort of like orient my life around. And I tried to really make sure that they weren’t all like, save this much, make this much like run a a 5K and under whatever, whatever.

2 (12m 31s):
Like one year I did have a goal to like run a 5K and under whatever, whatever time. And I like didn’t make it. I, I think I had on there for three years And I didn’t, I didn’t make it. And then like, go figure. Last year I just decided to run a half marathon and in the process of training for that, I ended up beating that like 5K time that I had set like, like so sometimes the goals come to you later, right? And so now I have like a few, like a few work related things, a few like deepening my relationships with friends and family things, a few spiritual things, a few like taking care of my like physical and mental health things to just to sort of like orient me as I like move through the year end. And I, I try to like keep an eye on it, but also not like, it’s not like a pass fail, it’s like a how close or far away from these did I hue?

2 (13m 15s):
And like, I dunno, like if I, if if for instance, like my goal was to like meditate every day, which is, it’s not, but like I did it 80% of the day. Like, great, that’s a success, right? Yeah. So there’s, there’s sort of like goals and intentions, but like loosely held, but like, but routine brought, like regularly returned to and like taken seriously, if that makes sense.

3 (13m 36s):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I, for a couple of years, like really honed in on numeric goals, right? Like I, I was very much like, I want every goal that I set to be something that I can measure because I was realizing that prior to that I was kind of setting some really like vague goals and it, and then at the end of the year I was like, well, I don’t, I don’t even have a sense of if I was close for far right, because like, I don’t have, there was no way to measure it. So, so then I decided, I like went the other way And I was like, oh, everything I do is gonna be measurable. Everything’s gonna have a number on it. And I did that for a couple of years and, and was really happy with that.

3 (14m 17s):
But then I had a year or a couple of years where like things drastically changed midyear either like I got an opportunity that I wasn’t expecting to get, or I started something new that took up a ton of time or whatever. And, And I realized that like my whole plan then got thrown out of out whack. And so the last couple of years I’ve shifted more towards thinking about quarters. Like I’ll, I’ll kind of plan the first three months of the year knowing that probably nothing too wild is gonna come up. Like obviously something can always happen. But, but last year again, I, you know, I ha I ended up getting a job that I was not expecting to get and like threw everything outta whack.

3 (15m 5s):
So this year I’m thinking a lot about like, what are the kind of buckets of my life? Like what are the kind of, like you were saying, you know, there’s relationships, there’s my mental health, there’s my body, right? And so thinking about what are some things in each of those kind of buckets that I wanna pay attention to less about, like, I wanna run a 5K more about like, oh, I eat really crappy lunches. Like, so my, my Q1 goal is like, find out some better lunch solutions that you can like take to work that are not gonna be a giant plate of pasta in the middle of the day.

3 (15m 48s):
Not that there’s anything wrong with a giant plate of pasta, but, you know, five days a week is probably not best for my 45-year-old body. And so trying to be a little bit more intentional about like, paying attention. I, I’m just noticing like as I’m aging, there are certain things that I haven’t done because I haven’t had access to healthcare. And so now I’m like, now that I do have access to healthcare, like I should probably go to the dentist, right? So there’s some things about that being more intentional about my body. But then I’m also, you know, I I I’ve been thinking a lot over the last several years, so much of, of our work, of my work has been really focused on, on a more public scale, right?

3 (16m 31s):
Of like, we’re writing books, we’re on social media, we’re traveling and doing speaking. And I, I’ve been thinking a lot about like, what would it look like to get more deeply connected where I am, like in person, local community, like who are the people and organizations doing work here where I am that I am like really passionate about how, what might it look like to get more involved with them? What might it look like to partner with those organizations? And so that’s, that’s one of the big things I’m thinking about in 2026 of like being a little bit more hyper-local, really getting rooted in community and place.

3 (17m 14s):
And also like, some of that is also about relationships. I have amazing friends all over the country and I’m realizing that I have very few friends like where I am. And so what does it look like to invest in those relationships, to put myself in places where I might be able to make new friends and find new community where I am. You know, I’m, I’m in rural communities in the deep, deep Midwest, and so it’s complicated, right? Yeah. And also I know that there are people here and so how can I put, put myself in places where I can find the like-minded people? So those are just some of the things that are on my mind.

3 (17m 55s):
And then also I, I think the last thing is like, I, I mentioned earlier trying to be intentional about making sure that I’m, I’m carving out time for the work that I am most passionate about. And, and for me, a lot of that is creative work. So like, how can I go to work all day and still come home and have enough mental bandwidth to like do creative work? What does that look like? What guide rails need to be in place in the rest of my life to like, make it possible for me to do that creative work? What does it look like to prioritize that? Maybe on the weekend, right? Like, however that looks like I’m, I’m still feeling like I’m trying to figure that out, but that feels really important to me.

2 (18m 33s):
Yeah, I love you so much. We’re such soulmates because I just love that we both like, we talk a lot, but I don’t think either one of us explicitly was like, we should make local community a priority. But both of us came to that. Yeah. Like in back in November, I was like, I, I remember I’ve been thinking about it for a while. Like, oh, I wanna do something more local, more local, more local. And so then finally at some point, one of my coaching clients, like is here in New York, happens to be here in New York City and was like, wanting to find a new church because like they realized there wasn’t affirming and didn’t know where to get started on how to look. And so I was like, I’ll, I’ll take you to church. And so like I put out on social media, I was like, anyone wanna go? Like any queer people wanna go find an affirming church together? We’ll like do a little group.

2 (19m 14s):
And like, that was really special. And I was like, oh, I, like, we, we might, I might do another, another one in like later this month or next month for folks who are in New York City looking for affirming churches. We might hop around to different churches, but I was like, there’s something here about community in person and organizing in person and, and sharing stories in person. And so yeah, I’m, I’m really like jazzed about that in the new year as well. And like, on a meta level, I think that there’s something about having some intentions, whether it’s for like your week ahead, that’s something that I do with my co my coaching clients. I’m always like, you gotta make a plan for your week if nothing else, a week, a quarter, a year. Especially like, especially if you’re in any sort of relationship, a a really like deep friend relationship, a roommate relationship, a business relationship, a romantic relationship.

2 (20m 1s):
Like, because it, like I can have all these intentions, right? But like, if I have a set of Intentions for our business that are wildly different than yours, like, we’re gonna have some problems, right? And so we have to, we have to, you And I Shay like have to like align on that and, And I can say like, oh, I wanna like go on a European vacation this year. And if my husband is like, no, I wanna like, I wanna like save money to pay off my student loans or like, whatever the course the case may be. Like, so, so sometimes there’s a, there’s like a using this moment of like, whether it’s planning or intention setting or goal setting as like a way to sort of align with some of the important people in your life.

2 (20m 41s):
And in doing so, like you create a shared vision for your future. And that like is one of the things that like brings you closer together. And so even if you don’t like, set a bunch of goals, just like having a check in with a partner of yours to say like, what’s one thing we wanna get outta this year ahead, I think could be like a really useful practice.

3 (21m 2s):
Yeah. And I, And I think that, you know, there’s been a lot of kind of negative talk around goals and, and goal setting and, And I totally get that. And also I think that you are really onto something by saying like, setting intentions is really important, right? Because I think so many of us, it’s so easy to go on autopilot all the time and to just be like, yeah, whatever happens this week happens. And then you get to the end of the week and you’re like, I have no idea what I did this week. I don’t think I like did anything that I wanted to do. And I feel like bummed out about it. Whereas setting its an attention again, isn’t about like failing, right?

3 (21m 47s):
It’s not about failure, but it’s about like, how can we, how can we get ourselves a little closer to the life that we’re dreaming of and that we wanna live? And I think that also asks us to ask the question, what kind of life do we want to live, right? Yeah. Like, what do we want our spiritual life to look like? What does community mean to us? What does friendship mean? What does it look like to have a deep relationship? And I think that sometimes I think sometimes we avoid those questions because we maybe don’t wanna face how far we are from the ideal that is in our mind. And also what I’ve known in my own life is like, it’s not until I face how far I am that I can actually take any steps to close the gap, right?

3 (22m 35s):
So that’s been really important to me to be able to look at something and be like, I’m, I actually am unhappy with how this goes. Or, or maybe not even unhappy, but like, I think this could be better. I’m discontented, right? I think that there’s more here.

2 (22m 51s):
Yeah. Like the one for more Yeah.

3 (22m 52s):
Yeah. By saying, by admitting that, then it’s like, oh, okay, well then what does it look like to have more? Or like, what is it, what what can I do to get me closer to that? And, and, and so that acknowledging the longing, I think is, is one of the first steps and can also be something that’s really hard, right? If if it feels like we’re really far from where we wanna be.

2 (23m 16s):
Yeah. And like this sort of like figuring it all out work, like for some folks it comes like really quick and easy. They’re like, I know exactly what I want. And, and for some folks it’s like, you’re not sure how to even figure that out or how to pay attention to what you actually want, or you’re scared to give yourself permission to want some things, or you have a sense of what you want, but you’re not exactly sure how to go, go get there. And so if you’d like some like intensive support in figuring all that out, we have spiritual direction and coaching available at Queer Theology dot com slash coaching. That’s like a really high touch, one-on-one long-term experience. But if you’re just like, wanna start the new year with some lighter intentions, we have a much lower touch, but still like a more accessible way of getting involved with that.

2 (24m 3s):
And that’s The Queerness Every Day Challenge. So Shea, can you tell us like a little bit about who the Queerness Everyday Challenge is for and, and what, like how it might enrich folks as they start their year?

3 (24m 13s):
Yeah, so we’ve been doing The Queerness Every Day Challenge for a little while now. We started it as a kind of a pride thing of for folks that wanted to better integrate their sexuality and their spirituality or their gender identity and their spirituality. And what we found is that like folks were so engaged with it and it became this really fun both individual process, but also a, a community building tool. And so we thought it would be fun to revisit it for the beginning of the year. And so each day there’s like a super easy challenge that you can do in 10 minutes or less that invites you to kind of reflect on some aspect of your spirituality and your queerness.

3 (24m 58s):
And we try to have things that are that kind of range in quote unquote difficulty level, right? So that if you’re like, just kind of starting to figure this out, there is one level at which you can do the challenge. And if you are like deep into your queer and spiritual journey, there’s like another level to that. So some things to reflect on, but each each day is like something to actually do. And for this kind of new year thing, it, it’s also an invitation for you to use the challenge as a jumping off point to ask these questions of like, what do I want these aspects and areas of my life to look like and what are maybe some of the first things I can do to start to make that reality happen?

3 (25m 47s):
Then we also have a communal element so you can come and kind of share what you did and get ideas from other people. And it’s a really fun way to both like do these intention settings on your own, but then also to join together in community and celebrate each other’s wins.

2 (26m 2s):
Yeah, when I think about The Queerness Every Day Challenge, it’s an opportunity to like bring closer together queerness and spirituality and faith, whatever it looks like for you. And also to bring yourself closer to both of those. So there’s just like, like you were saying, like more and so whether you’re like really discontented or you’re like, life is good, but like I just, like, I I, I know that there could be more. And so I, I I think there’s like lots of spheres where this can really like pay off in your interpersonal relationships, your romantic relationships, your community, like your Fr like friend and wider community, your sex life, your connection to the divine, your connection with spiritual communities.

2 (26m 44s):
If you’re like wanting to like, make changes or improvements in any of those areas, I think this is like a really great way to, to sort of dive into that. And if you’ve done it before, or if you’ve considered doing it before this year, we’re like expanding it a little bit and also adding some new stuff to it. And what we’re really excited about is taking a like a, a page out of our querying advent experience. There will be a like private audio feed that you can put in any podcast player of your choice so you can get the prompts and the like adventures and even some inspiration with you wherever you are. There’s like, there’s no apps to download, no logins to remember. So if you want to just sort of like have like Brian Shea coaches in your ear almost to sort of bring some new queer faithful energy into your year, we would love to sort of be in your ear at the start of this year.

2 (27m 39s):
And of course, if you would like to go deeper, there’s a whole community. You get access to all sanctuary collective and spiritual study hall as well. So it’s sort of like a choose your own adventure for how deeper, how shallow you wanna go.

3 (27m 49s):
We’re gonna get started on January the 12th, so if you would like some more information about it, go to Queer Theology dot com slash challenge. You can find all of the details and sign up there. And then I think I also wanna just say, you know, as we head into 2026, we’re excited to a release our book this year that’s like a super excited, exciting thing that is gonna be coming later in the year, but also, you know, continue to be in community and providing resources for folks around all of these issues around gender identity, around sexuality, around spirituality and, and how, how these things can inform and enlighten and enrich one another. And we’re gonna keep this very long running podcast going even longer.

3 (28m 32s):
And so if you have ideas of things that you want us to cover on the podcast, if you’ve got questions that you want us to answer, we would love to tackle those. You can send us an email to connect at Queer Theology com and we’ll be happy to entertain your suggestions for the podcast this year. We’ve got some great interviews already lined up and some other ideas that we’re noodling on, But we would love to hear your input as

2 (28m 56s):
Well. Thanks for being here and talk to you soon. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

4 (29m 7s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

2 (29m 15s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post Building Routines That Actually Serve Us appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community/

The post Queering the 10 Commandments appeared first on Queer Theology.

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Our resources have moved! You can find the workshop contents within our free resources at my.queertheology.com

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

1 (33s):
Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology of Podcast.

2 (36s):
This week we’ve got a listener question from Tumblr and they ask, are there progressive non literalist ways of talking about the Bible as uniquely authoritative and communicative of revelation? Or are the scriptures only inspired in a relativized sense alongside great works of literature, poetry, et cetera?

1 (57s):
Oh, I love this question. So this

2 (1m 1s):
Is a great

1 (1m 2s):
Question. Yeah, it get really gets at the heart of what we’re talking about on this podcast and in our work. I think it’s important to first name that there are gonna be a bunch of different answers to this question. Certainly if you survey all Christians, like conservative fundamentalist Christians are gonna have a different idea than other folks. Like there’s a whole range, like if you, if you survey fundamentalist Christians, if you survey Mormons, if you survey Catholics, if you survey progressive Christians, if you survey, you know, black preachers, if you survey whoever, we’re all gonna have different ideas about this. And also then, like, I think within each of those people are gonna have different ideas that there will probably be other L-G-B-T-Q, progressive Christians who think differently about this.

1 (1m 55s):
And Shay And I actually think slightly differently about this, you know, or we might not. So I just wanna name that. And there’s not, so it’s not about like trying to find like the objective truth of this is gonna be impossible, which I know is an unsatisfying or might be an unsatisfying answer, especially as someone who comes from a, from a tradition that taught that there was always one correct answer for everything about God and religion and faith. And as someone from just sort of like a secular perspective, like really math and science just like gets me going. And so like there’s a formula, like a squared plus B squared equals C squared, right? Like you can like add things up or divide things out and get, get like the answer.

1 (2m 37s):
And so figuring out like what the answer to this is is gonna be tricky. There’s always gonna be some nuance and some, some room for personal interpretation. Shay, where would you start? Yeah,

2 (2m 47s):
I think the phrase to me that is, there’s an interesting in this question is uniquely authoritative. And so my, my very first question would be to ask back, like, for whom? So I think that, like that to me is where we start this conversation of like, is the Bible uniquely authoritative? Like are you asking if it’s uniquely authoritative to everyone in the world? Is it uniquely authoritative to Christians, to progressive Christians? Like who are you asking about? And for? And so for me it’s like, I would say that because of the history of Christian tradition that has used this collection of scriptures as a text that has guided and whatever, that it is uniquely authoritative for the Christian community when understood in its proper context.

2 (3m 51s):
And I think when used well, and that also like that because so many people have used it because it’s been kind of a communal agreement that we are going to guide ourselves by this particular text that we can say it’s authoritative for those communities. But also, like, like you were saying, Brian, you know, the Catholics have like a bunch of extra books that are authoritative to them that Protestants don’t use or recognize. So like even within that question there is nuance. And then for me, I think it’s, it’s like there is also this sense of, of like, it is one of the great works of literature.

2 (4m 38s):
It has shaped culture and cultural traditions and norms for good and for ill over the centuries. And so like it also holds up in, in that respect and that avenue. But I think if we talk about it being uniquely authoritative for groups outside of the ones who have claimed it, then I think we’re in tricky, potentially problematic or colonialist territory.

1 (5m 15s):
I agree actually, like pretty, pretty to the t you know, as someone who has a, I wouldn’t say like a, I was gonna say like a lot of doubts about God, but I think at this point that’s like not even true. I just like don’t believe in God in the way that many religious folks seem to believe in God, whether they like, so, so maybe I am, maybe I have, I’m not as lonely as I think that I am, but, and so, so that, and also I definitely think that you like don’t need to be a Christian to be a good person to experience like an abundant life or salvation that like other religions are equally valid and being non-religious is also a great way to live your life.

1 (5m 56s):
And so and so all that said I do, but like you were saying, I do think that like for folks who claim Christianity, there is something uniquely authoritative about the Bible. Is it like the only source of authority in our lives? No, you know, we talk a lot about, this is like a very Wesley idea, but like scripture reason, experience, tradition, all being important. And so there’s many ways that we experience God, the movement of God, the people of God. The Bible is one of those ways. And then I think also like getting into this communicative of revelation, like what does revelation mean to you?

1 (6m 43s):
Is it there’s like a person in the sky with a Dictaphone that is dictating every, every jot and tittle, every word of the Bible to the authors? No, I definitely don’t, don’t think that, did the people who wrote and compiled the book experience something bigger than themselves that they like perhaps couldn’t quite put their figure on? And that seemed to be pointing towards a greater truth. Truth, yeah. Absolutely. And so is that also found in other scriptures, in other religious traditions, even in like literature and poetry, like Yes, absolutely.

1 (7m 26s):
And so I think like getting in on this like revelation thing is also tricky. It’s, it’s perhaps like more comforting to think like there’s a person or like an entity that has all of these answers and objective truth and like, they have given us this one thing, but that’s just like, not how I understand the world or revelation or scripture working. And then I think also this, this relativized sense alongside great works of literature, poetry, et cetera, is again, going back to your, to your question of like, who are we talking about and, and what is this for?

1 (8m 6s):
And so like in the scheme of all of humanity and all history, it’s, it’s one of many, for Christians, it might be a primary sense also, you know, literature, poetry, our experiences can help us understand God and even understand the Bible better. But like what poetry that really speaks to me isn’t necessarily going to really speak to you. Shea or parts of the Bible that speak to you aren’t necessarily gonna speak to me or vice versa. You know, there’s this quote by Carl Sagan’s wife that I like could be a bio passage for me that it just like really speaks to my heart and like helps me see God.

1 (8m 50s):
And like your shea is like, whenever I sent it Shea, he was like, I’m glad that like means something to you, but it doesn’t really do anything for me. And you know, like, but that’s just like the, the Bible is also a collection of stuff. And so like, we don’t all encounter even the Bible in the same way. And so like, I wanna challenge the notion that relativized, And I know that you are not saying this, but like that relative is like an inherently inferior position that like, even within the Bible, things have relative importance to each other. Both. Like, I think that Paul would be shocked and perhaps like mortified that many people hold his rambly letters on the same level as what was his, like sacred like Torah scripture.

1 (9m 45s):
And even within the Bible, some parts are given more or less relative importance, sort of like within the text itself. And then like all sort of Christians place more or less emphasis on different parts of the Bible. And so even the Bible itself is a collection of multiple texts that include literature and poetry that have relatively different importances to different people. And so I think that is also an important thing to remember

2 (10m 14s):
For sure. I think the key for me is like you’re setting up this false dichotomy. If you talk about like, scripture is only meaningful or important if it’s in errand and literal and like has primacy of place. And like, I I, I think that there are ways that you can take scripture really seriously, that it can be a guiding principle in your life that you can think of it as sacred without it needing to be anything more than what it is, right? Like, And I think, And I think that it’s, it’s, it can be a problem to like elevate scripture higher than it needs to be.

2 (11m 4s):
Or, or to say that like, if you don’t have it up on some kind of pedestal that you therefore don’t take it seriously. That’s something that I think gets thrown at liberal and progressive Christians all the time. And I, And I think that that’s like an unfair accusation.

1 (11m 22s):
Yeah, there’s so much more that we could say about this, both why we think this and then also how to go about the process of figuring this out for yourself and approaching the Bible in serious and faithful ways. And so we’re gonna put together an more extended workshop, online workshop about this. We don’t know exactly when it’s gonna drop.

2 (11m 47s):
Okay, let’s open up our Bibles and queer this text. Our text today is from Psalm 119 verses 1 0 5 through one 12. I’m gonna go ahead and read it for us. This is from the common English Bible. Your word is a lamp before my feet and a light for my journey. I have sworn And I fully mean it. I will keep your righteous rules. I have been suffering so much, Lord, make me live again according to your promise. Please Lord, accept my spontaneous gifts of praise. Teach me your rules though my life is constantly in danger. I won’t forget your instruction, though the wicked have set a trap for me.

2 (12m 28s):
I won’t stray from your precepts. Your laws are my possession forever because they are my heart’s joy. I have decided to keep your statutes forever. Every last one.

1 (12m 39s):
Hmm. When you started reading, I could just hear the song in my head. Yes. And I damn song, yo, what I’m gonna, I’m gonna wear you down and we’re gonna have music on this podcast eventually, but so I I love this text for This week, and one of the reasons why we picked it was because of the question earlier in the episode. And so this is an example of a part of scripture that is, you know, poetry or song depending on how you look at it or define those terms, right? And so like the Bible contains poetry and other types of literature. And I think that if you try and make the entire Bible a direct word for word revelation from God, that it cheapens it and distorts it.

1 (13m 34s):
And that when you read this passage, it’s like just not poss like clearly the author of this passage didn’t in that wasn’t this person’s experience of them writing this song, the author of this, of this psalm writing about God and about God’s word and what that means to this person. And so it’s like, it’s written almost to and about God rather than from God. And if you’re gonna like take the Bible seriously, just like a, a quick cursory reading of that, of this text, like shows that God is the, the subject of this piece, not the author of it.

1 (14m 17s):
So just wanna name that And I think that’s really beautiful thing to be included in the collection of, of sacred scripture. What about you Shay?

2 (14m 26s):
Yeah, I just, I remember so distinctly how I was taught about this passage and about the Bible growing up, right? That, that it was the iner infallible word of God that we, it could answer all of our questions. That anything we needed to know about God was in the Bible. That all of that, and like this passage in particular was often used in reference to like the whole, the whole of scripture. Even that even though when this passage was written like the Christian scriptures did not exist yet, and actually probably a lot of the Hebrew scriptures did not exist yet either.

2 (15m 8s):
And so this idea that, like your word is a lamp before my feet, the way that I was taught and a light unto my path was this, was this idea that we were supposed to memorize the Bible and use it to like guide everything in our lives. And, and so now reading back on this passage, I’m like, that is not what this is about. Like this poem is not about the Bible at all as a, as a whole. And it’s, it’s also more about like this poet reflecting upon the word that they’ve heard from their community, probably from their oral tradition, maybe from some of their sacred scriptures as like a guiding principle for their own lives.

2 (15m 53s):
And like I think we can look at this text then and say, okay, well what are the lights for our own journey? What are the words that point us to God, point us to community? But like to read this passage as if it’s about the Bible is, is really is not a good reading.

1 (16m 17s):
What I appreciate about this is your word is a lamp before my feet and a light for my journey. And I think about like, I imagine that image of a lamp and a light and what do lamps before your feet or lights for your journey do they illuminate the path. They aren’t the path itself. It’s not like the object. They help you see where you are and where you’re heading and like make sense of the world around you. But it isn’t like it helps you see things. It isn’t the thing at which you are looking. And that just like reminds me of the work that we do that we just wrapped up with this query in the Bible course, which we’re definitely gonna do.

1 (17m 2s):
Again, it was super popular. And even that we’ve done in the Faithful Sexuality course or the Christianity polyamory course, that the word of God can help us. It can like illuminate our journey through our queerness, through our relationships, through our polyamory. And when we bring like the word of God, the Bible Christian traditions, our sort of like experience of our faith community to bear on all of those parts of our life, our queerness, our sexuality, our bodies, even polyamory, that we can see all of that in a new and holy and sacred light and realize our inherent holiness and goodness.

1 (17m 46s):
And that also that as we illuminate that, those parts of us, those sort of like trees or bushes on the side of the road or the stepping stones across the creek, can then teach us about our faith. Also, it becomes this circle. And so we, we like need it all, we need like the lamp to guide us, but then we also need to look at the path outside of us to to see, to see where to go, and to notice that there’s a rocker that we’ve gotta step up, step over, or that if we keep going in this direction, we’re gonna hit a wall. And so we’ve gotta turn,

2 (18m 20s):
If you’re interested in going deeper into conversations like this, this is the type of stuff that we talk about all the time in Sanctuary Collective, our online community stuff about how our views of the Bible have changed over time. Stuff about how to read the Bible now from wrestling with relationships and coming out and churches and family and all that stuff. If you’re interested in learning more, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash sanctuary collective and we would love to have you in the community.

1 (18m 48s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (18m 57s):
To dive

4 (18m 58s):
Into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

1 (19m 5s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post The Lamp the Light the Path, Psalms 119:105-112 appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Learn more about Rituals for Resistance & Resilience here
• Join us and be part of Queering Advent! Find more info here.

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy,

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from Genesis,

1 (18s):
Revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

1 (33s):
A few days ago, I texted one of my friends who was also Jewish and asked if he wanted to come over for a lot ’cause and food and candles on the first native Hanukkah with some other friends. Wait, when does Hanukkah start? He asked, yes, I’m terrible for not knowing. He added, but you know what? Not knowing when Hanukkah starts is also a quintessentially Jewish experience for many Jews. It, it starts tonight, by the way, now if you know me, you know that I’m a big fan of counting holidays. I like to count the days of land count, the days of the Ooma count, the days of Advent, and of course, count the Knights of Hanukkah. It might be that that soothes some part of my A DHD brain, but for me, there’s also something deeply grounding about the practice of paying attention to the passing of time.

1 (1m 13s):
Maybe you count the days since a partner or friend or a family members passing. Maybe you count the days of your sobriety. Maybe you count the days until your gender affirming surgery. I’m a bit obsessed with the idea that everything can be spiritual, that the divine is already at your fingertips. In our rituals for resistance and resilience workshop, I outline seven steps to transform a routine into ritual. Sure, you can pray the rosary or go to Shabbat services, but if that’s, but if those don’t resonate with you, perhaps you could take some inspiration from counting the days of Advent or Hanukkah and create your own sacred countdown or other type of spiritual practice. In Hanukkah, we remember two things. The more feel good story that we remember is that after the temple in Jerusalem was taken back by the Jews from occupation under this lucid empire in the second century, b, c, E, there was hardly any oil left that could be used to light the menorah, which is a seven branched candelabra that burned daily in the temple.

1 (2m 9s):
Out of all the oil that was left, there was only enough for one night, but it would take seven more days to make and sanctify more oil. Still, they lit the menorah anyway, and somehow miraculously it burned for eight nights long enough to replenish the oil and keep it burning. A few years ago, my rabbi gave a talk on Hanukah. She shared how she started her rabbinet in the midst of the AIDS crisis and as a lesbian rabbi, she was one of the few clergy who would visit many gay men, sick or dying of aids. While we lost a devastating number of L-G-B-T-Q people to the AIDS epidemic, many survived against incredible odds. There’s a clip that I can’t get out of my head of Peter Staley organizing with Act Up in the 1990s where he says, I’m going to die from this, and yet over 30 years later, he’s still here.

1 (2m 59s):
The world has tried over and over and over again to snuff out queer people, neglect our healthcare conversion therapy, shame us into silence. Burn books about us in the 1930s in Germany, rewrite history about us in the 2020s in the United States of America, legislate our rights away, deny our genders, pretend our relationships didn’t exist or don’t count. And yet here we are. Here you are still burning just as bright. Each night of Hanukkah, we light one additional candle, starting with a mish that help our candle and one regular candle on the first night, and then all the way up to the mish and eight regular candles on the final night.

1 (3m 40s):
Each night, the light grows and grows and grows from a faint flicker in the beginning to a glorious roaring beacon. At the end, you might have started your queer journey small and timid, but you need not stay that way. Each day, the divine pours more light into you. May you grow stronger and brighter with each passing night. There is another reason we celebrate Hanukkah. In addition to the miracle of the oil, Hanukkah also celebrates a military victory. The reason why most of the oil has been destroyed and how the temple came to be your reclaimed by the Jews in the first place. Now, Jews have been occupied in and exiles from Israel countless times over our history and the second century, BCE was one of those times the saluted empire wanted to outlaw Jewish practice to destroy Jewish distinctiveness, to coerce assimilation into a hellenized society.

1 (4m 28s):
Worship, and the temple became a mashup of Jewish and pagan cult worship. Eventually, a group of Jewish rebels led by Judas Maccabee revolted to oust the occupiers and restore Jewish cultural and religious practices in the land and in the temple. Right now, in our present day, there are people who want to stamp out queer distinctiveness. If they cannot erase or destroy us, perhaps they can coerce us into being imitations of them. Make your queerness smaller. They say, blend in, dull your glittery rainbow distinctiveness, and exchange it for khakis and sundresses. Give up your chosen families and retreat to insulated and isolated nuclear families. Bottle up your expansive love and force it into marriages that mirror straightness as much as possible.

1 (5m 13s):
Assimilate, conform. Hanukkah reminds us to resist the temptation of assimilation. Queerness is holy, and in a world that is still unjust. As we wait for Alam Haba, as we say in Judaism, as we wait for the world to come, as we work, as Christians would say, for the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven, we need queerness now more than ever. Your queerness is a light like the timid flames of Hanukkah that somehow miraculously burned and burned and burned. May your light never go out. May you burn and burn and burn, and in doing so, may you light up the whole world. Can you hear Raton? May it be God’s will.

1 (5m 53s):
If you want to take better care of yourself, connect more deeply with the divine fuel, more integration with your queerness work for a better world, and yet it all just seems so hard. Shannon and I would like to invite you to take our rituals for Resistance and resilience workshop. You’ll learn about the revolutionary origins of some historic religious rituals while also being guided into crafting your own sacred practices that nourish and inspire you, so that you can go through the day with more joy, so you can feel more confident in your queerness, so you can be more bold in your words and actions. We would be so honored to support you. Learn more and register@queertheology.com slash rituals. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (6m 38s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

1 (6m 46s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post Queering Hanukkah  appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Join us and be part of Queering Advent! Find more info here.

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

1 (33s):
Hello. Hello. Hello. So good to be back in your eras with you today. On today’s episode, we’re gonna talk about the importance of not just leaving bad churches or leaving bad faith entirely, but also unlearning your path theology and this like danger of what could happen if you don’t take the time to un unload, unlearn. And you just sort of like try and pat it aside and pat it set aside and for, and forget about it for a while. We’ll also have a listener question that we will get to at the end of the episode. If you would like to have your question featured on the podcast, you can go to cardiology.com/listen. You can also leave us a voice message or send us a text message to 2 4 0 2 0 0 0 9 2 2.

1 (1m 19s):
That’s 2 4 0 2 0 0 0 9 2 2. Okay, and with that said, Shea, what are we talking about this episode and why?

3 (1m 30s):
Yeah, so I mean, I think one of the things that we see really, really often, and it’s especially prevalent among former evangelicals or folks who grew up in kind of evangelical or Catholic spaces, but it’s also, we see it in kind of a different way in folks that grew up in progressive and mainline spaces. So we can maybe talk about both of those things, but is folks who you know, are pretty sure that they know what they don’t believe and they have left homophobic or transphobic churches, maybe they’ve even left the church entirely, and yet they haven’t actually unpacked or unlearned the things that they internalized growing up.

3 (2m 13s):
And so what happens often is that their faith then becomes either a response to those things of like, well, I don’t believe that, right? Like, I’m just, I don’t believe in hell, I don’t believe whatever. And yet underneath kind of all of those feelings, there is still a sense of fear or shame or anxiety. And so I just talk about like why it’s so, so, so important that not only you leave those spaces, but that you also unlearn the theology, right? Like you have to unpack what is it that I was taught? What are other ways to understand that?

3 (2m 54s):
And you don’t have to necessarily stay a Christian or stay in the church or like even believe any of those other ways, but you have to do the work of understanding them so that those hard emotions don’t keep acting out in your life.

1 (3m 12s):
Yeah, I sometimes say it’s like you seem scared of a God that you don’t believe in, and I, I’m sure I’m not the first person to say that. And so I wanna find up, I think it was start by talking about like some ways that you might be able to notice that you have still got some like unlearning to do. And then we’ll sort of get into, well then what do you do with, what do you do with that? If you’re like, that’s me. And so I think like one, a one clear sign that you’ve got some unlearning to do is if you find yourself like being reactive in like any sort of discussion of God or religion comes up.

1 (3m 59s):
Obviously if like someone is using Christianity to like legislate against your body, you’re like allowed to be angry at that, right? Like that is a very like reasonable response. So it’s, we’re not saying that you have to like have like an absence of any emotion when it comes to religion or God or spirituality. Absolutely not. But like, you know, if you are, if you find out that someone you’re, you know, doing like abortion clinic escorting with like, also happens to be a Christian and you’re like, oh my God, how could you possibly believe in that? That’s all bullshit without knowing anything about the content of what she believes or he believes or they believe, and otherwise they seem like a thoughtful, justice centered kindhearted, you know, person doing good in the world.

1 (4m 54s):
Like it’s like, oh, like what is going on there? Because it sounds like you both don’t believe in the same God, but so that, that’s like some, that’s like, that might be like an indicator that there’s something going on there. Another indicator is that if you like in theory believe that it’s okay to be L-G-B-T-Q, it’s okay to have queer sex, but you find yourself like in your body feeling weird about it after you have sex. If you find yourself feeling shame about the type of sex that you’re having, the type of relationships that you’re having, and like maybe you like hook up and then like immediately ghost someone, or you start dating someone for a few weeks or a few dates and then like, it’s all going well on the surface, but like for some reason you like, you can’t quite put your pan finger on, you just sort of like it fizzles out.

1 (5m 45s):
This is, that was, this was my mo for the first, like I, I don’t know, five to seven years after I came out, probably if you asked me like, is it a sin to be gay? I was just like, absolutely not. It’s like not a sin to be gay. Like, and also like the way that I showed up in the world was, I didn’t notice this until my, one of my friends was away for a while and he came back and he was like, oh, whatever happened to that guy that Brian was dating. But like, when I left and, and my other friend told him like, oh, you know, like it was going really well. He was a great guy and like Brian did that thing that Brian does and like freaked out. And then it was over. And like when my friend told me like, this is what our other friend had said, I was like, oh, is that a, is that a pattern of, is that a pattern of mine?

1 (6m 28s):
Shit, I’ve like really gotta like pay attention to this. I used to like hook up with people, feel bad, block them, I’ll just sit back on Facebook. I blocked them on Facebook. Then like two months later, like the, it was like, I was like in less crisis and I would, I start to get more horny so then I would like unblock them and then I would like hook up with ’em again and then feel bad like all over again. This like this cycle repeated of like, I don’t know why, in my mind I believe that it’s an okay thing to be queer and I wouldn’t necessarily judge my friends who were doing it, but like in my body I was having some sort of response which was different than like, this person isn’t right for you, or like, this situation isn’t safe or you don’t enjoy this thing.

1 (7m 12s):
It was like they were good people that we had a good connection with and I was enjoying what I was doing. It was like the aftermath was like bringing up all of this weird shame or I thought that like I had to wait until I was in a certain type of relationship before having sex or progressed my sexual relationship like at a certain pace that was like, I was noticing was like not necessarily based on my like own comfort level of what was comfortable for me, but was like in response to like what I thought like I should do or what was appropriate. And so then when I started paying attention to like, well, why do I think that which we’ll get into later, like it was the, the shoulds. So if you find yourself like thinking that you like should do something or shouldn’t do something as opposed to being drawn towards wanting to do something or wanting to not do something.

1 (7m 59s):
Those are some indicators. What other indicators that there’s like some more unlearning and relearning to be done, to be done. Would you, would you add?

3 (8m 8s):
Yeah, so I think, you know, some other examples of folks who, who it’s clear, like they haven’t done some unlearning. I I wanna talk about like mainline folks for a second. So folks who maybe grew up in progressive spaces but they like, haven’t actually learned how to read the Bible on their own. And so what they’ve absorbed about Christianity is coming really from culture, right? From what they’re seeing on the news, what they’re hearing about Christianity. And so they have this sense of like, well, I don’t believe that, but I don’t actually know what it is I believe or like how to understand or think about those things. I saw this in with in a lot of folks in churches that I’ve worked at who like were were like dedicated churchgoers, we’re progressive people, but like wanted to throw out the Bible because they didn’t actually know how to read it, right?

3 (9m 5s):
And like they would say things like, we, I, we just need to like get rid of the Bible. And it’s like, well I think it’s actually kind of important that as a church that is centered around this book that we maybe grapple with it and learn how to read it and deal with it. And, and I know that like they weren’t hearing those messages from the pulpit of the church that they were in, but they had gotten that information from somewhere, from their Christian bookstore, from other people that they ran into that were part of more conservative churches and they hadn’t quite learned how to parse it. And so, I mean, I think this goes a little bit back to what you were saying about, you know, folks being reactive, but I think that it’s also a real indication of like, of some unlearning that needs to happen about how we understand and think through certain things

1 (9m 58s):
That, that, that made me, that made me think of just the other day in Sanctuary Collective, our online community, someone posted and they were like, I don’t know, they were, they were trying to like, like find new meaning in this story of Saddam and Gamo and like parsing through it. And then they just were like made this authentic comment of like, I just dunno, I find a lot of the like older testaments to be like really troubling to me. I’m like down with Jesus, but like, it’s just like hard to read the, the older testament that just seems like there’s like a lot of judgment in there. And I was like, oh, that, like, that is like not my experience of the older testament or the Old Testament of the Hebrew Bible. Those are kind of all different things, but like, if you like, but they sort of absorb this cultural message, right?

1 (10m 41s):
That like parts of the bible are like bad or scary or irreconcilable and the sort of like way to deal with that is to like wanna cut it out, want to throw it out, want to avoid it. And so like if you find yourself avoiding parts of the Bible, like that also might be an indicator that there’s sort of like more like unlearning and relearning to do like, not, like, not that like every part of the Bible is glorious. Like I think like parts of the Bible are troubling, but like I don’t, you don’t have to be like intimidated by the troubling parts. You can be empowered to say like, yeah, that shit’s fucked up. But also like if you find yourself painting like in broad strokes like all of the Old Testament is hard, you’re like, probably that’s probably coming from a place like you were saying Shea of like either reactivity or just like a lack of understanding about how folks actually engage with those texts because oh my goodness in the Hebrew Bible is all sorts of love and justice and like embodied connection with God and care and concern and all that good stuff.

3 (11m 41s):
Yeah. Yeah. And then I, I think the other piece is if you are in a space where fear keeps coming up for you, and again, I think that this is like right there is a, there is a world in which you actually have done some work and intellectually, you know, for instance like that there are lots of ways to believe about salvation or hell or the rapture or that the rapture isn’t real like any of those things and you still feel fear coming up sometimes that is just a, you’re still in a process of learning how to comfort and soothe your body and like convince your body that your head is right.

3 (12m 23s):
And so like that is one thing and we can, we’ll probably talk in a, in a future episode about like how we work on that mind body connection. But there’s another piece of that where if you are someone who just like continuously feels afraid, afraid of God, afraid to read the bible, afraid to go into a church, it, there’s probably something in there that that is saying like, there’s still some more unlearning to do and this is different than a trauma response, right? Like I, I wanna also name that for some folks there is like a, a complex trauma or A-P-T-S-D because of harm that has happened in churches. And so like you should maybe avoid those spaces or, or like seek out some therapy to, to figure out how to navigate that this is something different.

3 (13m 12s):
This is like a, just a sense of, I don’t know, doom or dread. Like this isn’t something where you’re, you’re talking about you’re having a panic response, but this is like a, I’m like afraid to read the bible because what if I read something that upsets me or sends me spiraling, I’m afraid to pray, I’m afraid to engage with Christian community because like I, I don’t want it to, to send me off the rails. And I think that all of that is, is usually a pretty good indication that you haven’t unlearned the theology and learned something new to take its place.

3 (13m 53s):
And I think that this is, this is a moment to say again like, you don’t have to stay Christian or stay in the church or have faith. And also I think it’s really important if you grew up hearing certain things that you understand and learn the counterpoints to that right? That that is what gets us out of fear and whether or not you like choose to continue to engage in that is totally in many ways irrelevant.

1 (14m 26s):
Yes. I think, I think like one of the things that we come across in our work is folks that are no longer Christian, either like explicitly no longer Christian or like kind of Christian, vaguely Christian, but it’s like not super important to them and they don’t wanna like do a lot of work around it but that have these like lingering beliefs about maybe they wouldn’t call it god anymore, but like the way the universe is gonna like get them back or fear or like just sort of like disconnected from their bodies, like shame, right? And that like actually sometimes like if it’s like if, if you want to stop being a Christian, sometimes like the best thing that you can do is like spend four to eight to 12 weeks like studying Christianity so that you like excise all of that from you and so that you can then like leave while we talk all the time about like, we wanna help folks who want to stay Christian, like do that really well and we wanna help folks that want to like leave Christianity, like do that well as well or who folks want to like do something else or reimagine their, their faith that like, but you gotta, in order to move on to like the best version of what’s next, you gotta make sure that you like leave all of the bullshit behind.

3 (15m 39s):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is also like, it’s more in depth than just learning the like progressive counter to evangelicals talking points, right? I see this a lot too of folks who have left evangelicalism, but they’re still arguing against evangelicals using the rules and the terms that evangelicals have set up about like what the Bible is and what it means and how to read it. And I think that too gets us stuck in a cycle of being reactive, of being influenced and informed by evangelical theology and thinking, right?

3 (16m 20s):
There’s this idea that, that they somehow hold all of the power in the conversations and that we’re like just responding to them and that we have to respond in that way. And, and one of the biggest things for me was, was learning that like, oh actually the rules of they rigged the rules of the game. So like me continuing to engage with them in that way actually helps to elevate how they’re thinking about scripture and how they’re thinking about theology and like, I’m not willing to do that anymore. And that was when I started to like get free because it was like, oh, there’s actually a whole other way to read the bible, to understand theology that doesn’t at all even give credence or any elevation to evangelical thinking and theology and like that’s where we need to be spending our time.

1 (17m 12s):
Yeah, it reminds me of those passages and I know Matthew and Mark maybe at somewhere else also where Jesus is telling his disciples, like if you go somewhere and they like won’t listen to you, like leave and shake the dust off your sandals. I know we’ve covered that in my podcast a number of times. He isn’t like, if they don’t listen to you well then try to like meet them where they are or like try to like put them in like language that they’ll understand or like argue on their terms. He’s like, no man, like come preach the gospel like on our terms and they won’t hear it like peace. And I think like there is some power in in doing that so that we don’t, like you were saying by it’s kind also when I was doing media training from glad they were, were like you, if someone asks you like a problematic question you like don’t, you’d like don’t answer it on their terms, you respond, you don’t answer, you don’t like repeat problematic framings of things.

1 (17m 59s):
Yeah. ’cause like sometimes like really like messy or problematic or harmful assumptions are like baked into the questions that you’re asked or the like the ways in which that scripture or theology is engaged with. And so like it is impossible not to affirm harmful theology if you answer on those terms. And so you just gotta like jet us in all of that together. Yeah. So if you’re

3 (18m 23s):
Hearing all of this and you’re thinking, yeah, that sounds great and I’ve got some stuff to do and like, where the hell do I start? We’ve got you covered. You can go to cariology.com/resources and find resources on all sorts of things. Whether your biggest thing is that you’re still feeling shame around sex or you are wondering how to read the bible better and you know, starting to, to get some progressive theology in there, we’ve got you covered. So go to queer theology.com/resources if there’s something in particular that you’re looking for, you can always send us an email connect at queer theology com. We’d love to point you in the right direction.

1 (19m 2s):
Alright, and now let us turn to our listener question. Just a reminder, if you have a question that you would like answered, you can send us a text message or leave us a voicemail at 2 4 0 200 0 9 2 2. That’s 2 4 0 2 0 0 0 9 2 2. If you prefer, if you’re international or you prefer to do it on the web, you can go to queer theology com slash listen and you can leave us a voice note or send us a text-based message there as well. So with that, let’s take a listen to our first question.

4 (19m 38s):
It was a Brent, she I was just wondering, so I wanna say like a year or so ago, I ended up watching that 1946 movie, the documentary that was like posted online. They had it like circling at like, like movie festivals and stuff and I watched it and it was really good and then I commented on somebody’s page on like TikTok and stuff and they were saying that that actually is all false and that it’s really just like progressive Christian stuff and that like everything that they said in there was not true and all that stuff. So I just wanted to ask you all and because you actually like, you know, studied the bible and like the history and stuff and I just wanted to get your take on it.

4 (20m 26s):
I know that this is probably a big thing and I’m sure you’ve maybe even have mentioned it before, but I just wanted to put it out here suggests that other people can also know too. And yeah, so thank you so much for your time and I hope you and everybody out there have a really blessed day. Thank you peace. Much love.

3 (20m 43s):
Yeah, I love this question. I think it’s so, so important and interesting and the like short answer is it doesn’t matter slash you’re both right and the longer answer is a little bit more complicated. So the, the first thing to notice is that the folks who made the 1946 documentary are correct that, you know, in the English translations of the Bible, we didn’t have the word homosexuality inserted until 1946. The problem with that is that like, that doesn’t suddenly make the Bible homophobic, right? Like people were using the bible to be antique well before the insertion of that word.

3 (21m 29s):
And so like the, the idea that like that was suddenly how we got homophobia in our churches is like just not true. And so I think that the, this, this leads to a more nuanced conversation about like what do we do with both those verses and with the understanding of like a progressive view of sexuality. Like how do we make sense of that? And then even further than that is also like how do we deal with the kind of the rhetoric that’s like, no, that’s just like wishful thinking, it’s actually wrong and like they’re just making it up and, and that kind of what you’ve called many times Brian, like the hamster wheel of Yeah, I was thinking that and, and of like reading theology.

3 (22m 18s):
And so like I think that that is actually a more important place to sit and wrestle with anything you would add to what I’ve said.

1 (22m 26s):
Yeah, when, when I was listening to this question, I immediately got a flashback to when I was figuring out that I was queer and like researching like what does the bible say? And obviously like however long ago, everybody, like 20 years ago this movie didn’t exist yet, but a lot of the same arguments were were being made there about like, this is a mistranslation of this word. And, and so then I would just go back and forth. So like I would, I would read about how these words were mistranslated, how the translation changed, how the word homosexual didn’t appear until the forties. Then I would, I then I would read some other article about saying like, all those, all of those arguments are like bs. And then I would read a third one about how the, the anti-gay argument was actually incorrect and the the original one was correct and I was just, it felt like I could, like never, I was just like, I could never get a, had a spy answer on either from either side.

1 (23m 16s):
And I think that gets back to what we were talking about earlier in this episode that it’s like about more than just like, what does this one word mean? Because I baked into the question, right? Is that if this word means homosexual, then definitively homosexual is like not a sin, it like is a sin. And it’s like, well a like it was written Greek, so like we don’t even, I’m like homosexuality as a concept didn’t exist. And so I think think like we, we, what you find yourselves getting into is like you get into the weeds, right? About like, well homosexuality is a concept didn’t exist. So of course like, it’s not an exact translation, but it’s like it’s a close enough translation and it, you know, we have to update our translations to modern times, which is like not wrong, right?

1 (24m 1s):
To your point, even if the translation didn’t mean homosexual, like there’s other verses that people can point to, right? Or there’s just more like a general sense of like, well there aren’t queer people in the Bible at all. So, so then what? And I think like if you, if your sense of it’s okay to be queer hangs on like a definitive reading of these seven passages and or of like David and Jonathan being gay, this ur and his like servant slash slave being gay, that’s like a really fragile thing to hang your, the love of yourself on. And it, it is just as fragile I would say as like evangelicalism, like you shay you all for years and years have been saying like it’s a house of cards.

1 (24m 46s):
Like, and so if you, if you just blow on it, it all comes tumbling down. And I think like you, we want you to have a stronger faith foundation than like, I just hope that this translation of this like 2000 year old made up word is correct. Like, ooh, like that is a shaky foundation. And we, we have found over and over and over again is that like, that is like an unfulfilling argument for queer people that leaves us sort of like in a shaky place and it like is generally not gonna move homophobes who like are committed to believing that queer people are living in sin, that we gotta find some other way to move those, these like highly academic arguments are not the thing that moves the needle.

1 (25m 29s):
And so I wanna pull back and say like, how do we read the Bible in totality? What are the messages that are trying that are being told? How does scripture like speak in a, like where does speak, where does scripture agree with itself? Where does scripture disagree with itself, contradict itself, wrestle with itself, argue with itself for, for folks who are Christian, like what does Jesus like say, what does Jesus do? How does like the early church in scripture understand Jesus? How does the church beyond like the, the Bible understand Jesus? And this is like that all what I just said, just explaining the process, let alone actually doing the process takes more time than like the homosexual and the fornicator shall not inherit the kingdom, right?

1 (26m 17s):
It’s like not a soundbite, right? Yeah. But I do think that like you are made in the image of God that like God desires right relationship with you that like there’s, you have some internal sense of like the divine speaking to you and working with you, whether that is like still small voice from the Hebrew Bible, whether that’s the Holy Spirit from the Christian Bible that like the fruits of our theology manifest themselves like in our lives and in our world that like we can trust ourselves in some way. All of those things like come together to, we make a really beautiful and profound case, not just for, for like queer acceptance, but for like the importance of like justice work in general.

1 (27m 7s):
Which is not to say that like there aren’t problematic passages or hard passages or passages like worth wrestling with in the Bible, but like this idea that we just have to accept passages that trouble us at face value is like a very modern understanding of how we’re supposed to engage with scripture and with God. And like, just ’cause like some people, some types of Christians are like saying it very loudly does like not actually mean that that is a faithful way to engage with a bible.

3 (27m 40s):
Yeah. I I I think that also goes back to what we were saying earlier about like this argument about the, this word being added in 1946 is very much like predicated on on the idea of the Bible as infallible and in errand, right? Like it’s, it’s an argument designed to hold up how evangelicals understand scripture, which I would, I would say is like not the way that we want to engage, that we instead wanna be saying, no, actually infallibility and inerrancy are really, really new and modern inventions. And like there’s a, a more faithful way of reading all scripture.

3 (28m 24s):
And that like, all scripture becomes much more interesting when you read it with nuance and with and and, and as in conversation with itself as opposed to this text that is clear and tells us what to do and is this like, you know, checklist for how to be, how to believe and behave.

1 (28m 47s):
Yeah. And like it’s this word in particular, it’s like a 2000 year old word, it is like a made up word that is like an amalgamation of like two other words that were like everyone doing a translation is trying to like discern what it means from like how it was constructed and like this scam other places it was used. And so it’s like, that’s just like an unsatisfying response. It’s like that is like always going to be unsatisfying for queer people and for anti LGBT people. Like, they’re like man bigotry is a hell of a drug, right? So like if they’re coming into it already thinking that like queerness is like sick and sinful, like of course they’re not going to trust like this sort of like really nuanced academic arguments about this word.

1 (29m 33s):
We’ve got to figure out how to move them like on a systems level, on a heart level so that they can then get to a point where they can like actually look at the data and be like, oh yeah, it probably doesn’t mean that. And like even if it does, like that’s like, that’s wrong. And so like if, if this sort of stuff is resonances to you, either you’re like a queer person and you’re like wanting some more affirmation and assurance about the Bible and whether or not it condemns queerness or you’re someone who wants to figure out how to like engage with others more effectively, definitely check out our resources page as Shea was saying earlier, queer theology.com/resources. I wanna flag two workshops I think would be particularly helpful for you collaborating the collabor passages, which is all about the passages that have historically been used against LGBT people and how you can sort of like unlearn and relearn around those we share, you know, not just the sort of like traditional arguments as you would hear in the, in the movie, but also our sort of take on how you can really, truly want and for all, like let go of the power that they have over you.

1 (30m 41s):
And then also active advocacy if you wanna definitely for straight cisgender folks to like be a better advocate and ally for LGBT LGBTQ people folk. But also if you are a queer person yourself, you might get something out of that just in terms of like how to effectively organize and some like pitfalls and obstacles to avoid.

3 (30m 58s):
Yeah. Alright, we got one more question. This person writes, hi, I’m a bi latina person. She, they wanting to return to my Christian roots and embrace what I felt scared to do growing up. I feel stumped over where to start and what resources to use. How can I overcome this fear to revisit God? What are the steps to start?

1 (31m 18s):
This is a great question. Like you said, Shea, I, there, I’ve got like two high level places that I think you, you would start. One is, I guess kind of more like advice to the journey. And that is I think to make things like, make whatever it is that you’re doing, very small and very simple. This was something that came up for us when we were running our queerness everyday challenge a little while ago. The tasks were like super small, unachievable. This is also inside of Ox Up Your Faith program. We break things down into like this, into like the smallest, simplest chunks so that you can, so that you can actually like, make movement If you’re feeling fear, if you’re feeling resistance, if you’ve like been watching this for a while and you haven’t been able to figure how to get started, it’s probably because like the task feels too big.

1 (32m 11s):
So rather than trying to go from this like place of fear right now to like next week feeling like a thriving prayer life and a like a community where you feel totally connected with and like nothing but like joy, no fear all joy, right? That’s like a huge, that’s like a huge chasm to to, to jump over. And so like, how can you make things smaller? It might be that like the first step is to like, you know, we always say this, it’s like journal and meditation, but like, it might be that the first step is to like, pay attention to the questions that you’re asking yourself to figure out like what exactly are you afraid of?

1 (32m 50s):
It might be to like figure out like what you are like most excited about and what you are most like hesitant about. And like, I think like if ever you feel like I can’t do that, figure out a way to make it even make the step even smaller. Obviously, like if you want help breaking all this down, we can go into more depth via email and also inside of Flip Your Faith, which is currently close registration, but it’s coming back soon. So go to queer theology.com/waitlist to get on the wait list for that. But so like, my thing, my first step is like just like smaller and simpler. I have a second idea, but I’d also, I’ve been talking for a minute, so I I can hold that back while if you’ve got something to say Shey.

3 (33m 28s):
Yeah, I mean I think, I think for me it’s, it’s making sure that as you’re restarting this journey, that you are restarting it in community and being resourced by folks who are progressive. That the way to restart this journey isn’t to like, go back to the evangelical church or conservative church that you grew up in. It’s not to like dig out your old daily devotional and restart that, right? It’s to get new resources that are gonna speak truth into your life and that are gonna help you understand in a new way.

3 (34m 8s):
My biggest concern would be that you would jump back in with all of the resources that you started with. And so figuring out like, what is it that you need, whether it’s like, I need to start with reading a book about how to read the Bible and I’m gonna, I’m gonna go there, or I need to find an LGBTQ plus affirming church so that I can attend a worship service there. Or even just like watch some sermons online to dip back in. But just making sure that you are surrounding yourself with progressive people and progressive theology, which isn’t to say that like you only listen to what you wanna hear, which I know is gonna be the, the pushback to that.

3 (34m 49s):
But it’s saying like, you’re in a space where you’re just starting on a journey where your faith is a bit fragile, where you’re relearning in some ways like how to walk in this space. And so you need to make sure that you are listening to voices that you can trust and that you’re not get overly confuse yourself or put yourself in harm’s way because you’re trying to like listen to a multiplicity of voices right off the bat.

1 (35m 16s):
Amen to that. So as we’ve already said a few times, we have a bunch of those resources@queertheology.com slash resources. If you would like to hear from folks other than us, we think that’s a great idea. We, and if you’re a reader, we put together a bunch a a bunch of different book recommendations on our bookshop at bookshop.org/shop/ology. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes from all different sorts of perspectives, right? Like Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Re like liberation, like liberation work from like the Latin American perspective. Juliet takes a Breath, which is like a beautiful fiction book, Latina and queer. We’ve got a bunch of nonfiction recommendations, the black, you know, trans prayer book, all sorts of like really great stuff to sort of like start feeding you from a, like a queer perspective, a liberation perspective.

1 (36m 7s):
And so resources, I think like, and, and starting to revisit your faith as like an important part of that process. And then I would also encourage you along the way to like pay attention to your body, how your body is reacting, and also how you can like, take care of your body, be gentle with your body and how you can not just like think about things or read about things, but also start to embody your beliefs and practices that is like way more than we can go into here, but in, in the time allotted. But we’ll, you know, I’m sure we’ll be doing like a ance everyday challenge again or something similar in the future and sharing more in depth by email.

1 (36m 47s):
So make sure you hop on our email list if you have not already, so that you can go, we go like deeper with you around this because this is like a really important question and hopefully that can help get you started.

3 (36m 59s):
Yeah. And so that is it for today. As a reminder, if you want to leave a question for us to answer in a future podcast episode, you can go to queer theology.com/listen and and do a video or text or you can call the Google Voice number. We would love to answer any of your questions, whether they’re about faith and theology or particular bible passages or something else entirely. Hit us with what you got. We would love to, to chat with you more. And that is it for this week. We will see you next week with another episode.

1 (37m 34s):
See you soon.

5 (37m 35s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for BTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (37m 44s):
To dive into more of the actions, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

5 (37m 51s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post Moving Past Terrible Theology appeared first on Queer Theology.

Rituals and liturgical seasons like Advent are invitations for us to re-center on what is most important to us.

This winter, journey with us through Advent to deepen your awareness of and commitment to the connections between queerness and faith.
Learn more and register at queertheology.com/advent

An Advent practices that enriches your December, rather than stresses you out
Brian & Shannon will offer a deeper reflection each Sunday of Advent—a mix of teaching, queer insights, and questions to consider.

Then, during the week, you’ll get a short audio guide—shorter readings, reflections, prompts, and experiments— delivered right to your podcast app or available in our community hub.

So that you move through this season with intentionality and contemplation. Feel steadied and reassured in these trying times. And a greater inspiration for how our faith can speak a good word to your personal life and our communal systems.

All for $25 — that’s just one dollar for each day of Advent.

Register here: queertheology.com/advent

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

0 (0s):
Hello. Hello. We are just a few days into Advent, and I wanted to make sure that you knew about Queering Advent, a daily guided audio exploration of Advent so that in this time of winter waiting, you might be able to draw closer to the Divine, also to draw your queerness and your faith closer to one another as part of Queering Advent. Each day there are short audio reflections on weekdays, they’re five minutes or less, and then on Sundays it’s a little bit longer of a conversation between myself and Shannon on the different themes of Advent. You get them in a private audio feed that you can put in the podcast player of your choice.

0 (41s):
So if you’re listening to this podcast, you already know how that works. You don’t have to remember any logins. You don’t have to sit at your computer. There are no screens to stare at. Just a daily dose of queer Faithful Reflections, meditations, and even some challenges and inspirations. We would love to have you be part of it. It’s just $25. That’s $1 for each day of Advent. You can learn more at queer theology.com/advent. And now I would like to share with you a preview of what you’ll find inside of Queering Advent.

1 (1m 12s):
Welcome to Queering Advent.

0 (1m 21s):
After I came out, it took my parents many years for them to come around and be affirming, and in those in-between years, I spent a lot of time waiting, waiting for them to accept me, waiting for them to say the right things, waiting for them to ask meaningful questions about who I am and the life that I’m really living. When I think about it, I also spent some time waiting on myself before I even came out waiting to be sure that this was true, waiting on the right explanation to confirm for myself that it was okay to be queer, waiting for the right time to tell my friends and families and coworkers and people that I knew from church waiting to feel comfortable being perceived as queer out in public, and even since I’ve been out as queer for over half my life at this point, which is wild to think about, and even still, I find myself in these periods of waiting to settle into my identity, to feel comfortable as a polyamorous person of faith to uncover new areas of shame that I still carry in my body to weight.

0 (2m 29s):
For those to be excised and to feel completely comfortable. Psalm one 30 says, I cry out to you from the depths, Lord, my Lord, listen to my voice. Let your ears pay close attention to my request for mercy. If you kept track of sins, Lord, my Lord, who would stand a chance, but forgiveness is with you. That’s why you are honored. I hope, Lord, my whole being hopes and I wait for God’s promise. My whole being waits for my Lord more than the night Watch waits for morning. Yes, more than the night. Watch waits for Morning Israel. Wait for the Lord because faithful love is with the Lord, because great redemption is with our God.

0 (3m 12s):
He’s the one who redeem Israel from all its sin. Shannon and I are wondering today what you might be waiting for, and that is your prompt today. Take a few minutes right now to think on a time when you’ve been waiting for something. What were you waiting on? How did you feel while you were waiting, and then what did you do? As always, we invite you to not just reflect on these in your head, but to jot them down pen to paper or in a Notes app. If you feel comfortable, pop on over to Sanctuary Collective community to the querying Advent thread and share with us one of your experiences of waiting.

1 (3m 54s):
That’s

0 (3m 55s):
All for now. We’ll see you tomorrow, Shannon and I would love to have you be part of Queering Advent. In addition to the daily audio reflections, you also get access to the entire Sanctuary collective community, as well as the spiritual study hall library of resources already inside a sanctuary collective. We’re having some really interesting discussions about the themes and the questions and the reflections that have come up over acquiring Advent. We would love to get to know you and grow deeper in faith with you, so come on in queer theology.com/advent.

The post Preview: Queering Advent appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways:

• We’re asking this question not out of a sense of doomsday prepper.
• What do I need to do right now, right where I am?
• Creating the kind of community I long to live in.
• Building a world that will protect the most at risk.
• The importance of personal responsibility in community building.
• Resilience is key in facing challenges.
• Safe spaces are essential for vulnerable populations.
• Community building requires active participation.
• We must think about our actions in the present moment.
• Creating supportive environments is a collective effort.

Resources:

• Join us and be part of Queering Advent! Find more info here.

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

Amazon Music (1s):
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2 (43s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

3 (46s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts

2 (51s):
From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning

3 (57s):
Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast Today, you’ve got a solo Father Shannon episode. It is the beginning of Advent, and I just have a couple of thoughts and reflections that I wanted to share with you as we get this Christian season started. Advent has arrived. I kind of can’t believe that we are already at this point in the year. Hopefully you are already ready to go with your advent practice and that you’re raring to, to kick it off.

3 (1m 39s):
I know for me, it sometimes takes me a bit to, to get into the season, but I, I find that advent is a, is a really important and reflective time. A time when we prepare, not only for Christmas of course, but also we reenter the Christian story. You know, advent is the beginning of the Christian calendar, and we begin anew to replay this ancient story, the story of Jesus, the story of the Christian people, a story that still resonates and resounds today, and, and whether or not you still consider yourself a Christian, whether or not you’ve ever celebrated or observed Advent before.

3 (2m 25s):
I think that there’s a lot that we can get out of the themes of Advent and thinking through kind of this cycle of the Christian life, the cycle of the spiritual life, the cycle of the stories that we tell about ourselves and our communities. And I’ve been thinking a lot about the themes of advent, particularly in these days. You know, advent is often thought of as a time of preparation. And you know, right now, as I am recording this, we’re, we’re getting ready to enter into this season. And, you know, the threats against trans and non-binary people in particular continue to rise.

3 (3m 7s):
So do prices and potentially healthcare costs if we can even get healthcare at all. And there’s so much violence and fear and anxiety the way that immigrants are being treated in this country. The political rhetoric all over, you know, it feels really scary sometimes, and it also feels often, I think with the 24 7 news media, like things are getting a lot worse. And, and I know for me as a trans person, I’ve been thinking a lot about what can I do to prepare? And I know a lot of other trans people are, are thinking about this as well.

3 (3m 47s):
And we’re asking this question not out of a sense of pessimism or like a doomsday prepper, but we’re thinking about it, or at least I’m thinking about it, of, you know, what do I need to do right now, right where I am right in these moments in order to create the kind of community that I long to live in. What do I need to do right now, right here, right in this moment in order to keep building a world that will protect the most at risk? And so in this advent season, I am thinking both theologically and practically about these questions, about this theme of preparation.

3 (4m 31s):
And I’m working to answer these questions for myself. And, and I thought that today it, it might be interesting to offer them as reflections for you too, if these questions feel useful. And so I’m, I’m gonna ask the question and pause just for a couple of seconds. If you wanted to use this as an exercise, as journaling prompts, as time to think, you could simply hit pause on the podcast after each question. If it’s more helpful for you to hear all the questions and then spend some time to reflect, feel free to do that. But here are the questions that, that I’m reflecting on, and then I offer to you as a reflection as well. The first is simply who is in my community?

3 (5m 15s):
And you can think of this as narrowly or as broadly as you want. I encourage you to think about it, especially concretely, both like who is in your community, right, in your location and lo locality, like who around you is in your community. But you can also think more broadly of who is in your community. What does community care look like? What matters to me when it comes to my health? And how can I put measures in place to protect that health?

3 (5m 60s):
What might I need to think about when it comes to legal documents moving forward? Who are the people I trust who can inform me about what I need to do to keep myself safe? How did my elders make it through similar times? What can I learn from strategies of resistance and strategies of care from the past? How am I giving back to my community?

3 (6m 41s):
What can I offer my community? And after you’ve spent some time reflecting, I invite you to not just leave these as answers on paper or a screen, don’t just leave them in a journal, but use these answers to start to inform how you’re showing up. Maybe you wanna show up in some new ways. I am particularly using this advent to prepare and answer these questions so that I can begin to act so that I, I can begin to show up in my community in new ways. I think that the story of Jesus wasn’t just about a miraculous intervention into human history.

3 (7m 26s):
You know, often we talk about the advent story and the Jesus story as you know, the people were waiting and then Jesus came and, and it was all fixed, right? ’cause, ’cause Jesus came. I think that instead the story of Advent is a reminder that there are always prophets who are pointing out what’s wrong in the world. There are always prophets who are looking around and saying, we don’t have to live like this. And then those same prophets are inviting us to be a part of the solution. And so in this advent time, I think it’s a time for us to look around and point out what’s wrong. It’s a time for us to uplift the voices of the prophets and to echo the voices of the prophets.

3 (8m 13s):
But it’s also a time for all of us to remember the invitation, to be a part of the solution, to remember the invitation, to continue to build a new world together, to continue to look out for the most marginalized and the most at risk in our midst. And to do whatever we can to make the world safer for them and for all of us. And so I offer this as an advent reflection for you. If you want some extra support throughout this advent season, you can join Sanctuary Collective. We would love to have you as a member of the community. This

2 (8m 50s):
Is Brian popping in as we edit. To let you know that inside of Sanctuary Collective during Advent, we have a guided audio advent experience for you called queering Advent. It’s a mix of bible readings, queer reflections, prompts for you to reflect on, and even a few suggestions for adventures and experiments to put your faith into an action. A new prompt drops every day of Advent, so you can learn more in signup@queertheology.com slash advent. It’s just $1 per day. And you also get access to the entire Sanctuary Collective community and spiritual study hall resources collection. Again, that’s queer theology.com/advent, and it’s happening all advent long. I hope to see you inside.

3 (9m 28s):
We would love to support you through Advent and this holiday season. Be well and we’ll see you next time.

2 (9m 35s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

3 (9m 44s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

2 (9m 51s):
We’ll see you next week.

Libsyn Ads (9m 55s):
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The post An Advent Reflection for Uncertain Times appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

Mochi Health (1s):
A mochi moment from Sadie who writes, I’m not crying, you’re crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi, because I didn’t have to convince him I needed a GLP one, he understood and I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I’m Myra Ammo, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit join mochi.com. Sadie is A mochi member compensated for her story.

2 (40s):
Well,

3 (40s):
To the Queer Theology podcast, I’m Brian G. Murphy.

4 (43s):
And I’m father Shannon, TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts

3 (47s):
From Genesis to Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning

4 (53s):
Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

3 (1m 2s):
Today we’re doing a deep dive on three chapters of Matthew, Matthew 14, 15 and 16. This episode feels particularly important right now as it talks about confronting the powers that be in the places we live. And spoiler alert contains a bit of a call to treason in these charged political times. How our faith calls us to engage with society, community, government, and the world around us feels especially important. This episode originally aired as part of a larger series looking at the entire book of Matthew. If you’re interested in checking out more of that, the first episode of the series does a lot of context setting for the whole book of Matthew.

3 (1m 48s):
That episode re aired just a few episodes ago, so you could scroll back for that. The whole series was episodes 4 72 through 4 79. So if you’re looking for those in the podcast app, scroll back to find those. And with that, let’s dive into Matthew chapter 14, 15, and 16. We are back and we are officially entering the second half of this eight part, eight week series on the gospel of Matthew. I hope that you are loving it and not sick of it yet. We’ve covered a lot of ground and there’s still so much to go. Shea and I, Shea was in Los Angeles for a few weeks, so we were in the same place at the same time.

3 (2m 28s):
And we were chatting after recording last week’s episode that like even eight weeks, it feels like not enough time. Like last week’s episode, we walked away being like, oh, there was like 25 more things that we wanted to say about just those passages. And so thankfully inside of Sanctuary Collective, we have some space to discuss, discuss some more and go into, into more detail. So if you are digging the series and you want more of it, join us in Sanctuary collective community to find out all about that. And now let’s dig into part five. Shea, what, what the heck’s going on? Yeah. So today we are gonna take a look at chapters 14 through 16.

3 (3m 12s):
Once again, not enough time. We’re gonna have to go really broad strokes. And I think that this is the fact that we’re talking about going in depth, but also like that there’s so much more to uncover is to me, the really exciting thing about doing Bible study and doing it well, right, is that there is always more to uncover that there’s always so much going on under the surface and, and that each time you encounter these texts, like you’re encountering something different because you’ve changed, because the world has changed because your understanding has changed. And that to me just feels like continually an exciting process.

3 (3m 55s):
And so as we dive in, we start out with the death of John the Baptist. And this is another moment where Matthew takes some from Mark, but changes it significantly. It’s also this really weird passage because like he starts out with a story and then is like, after John was dead, oh wait, I haven’t actually told you any, anything of that happened. And then we like go back in time. He tells that story and then it’s like back to the present. It’s just this like weird, weird little thing. But I do think that the, the important piece about why the author of Matthew is talking about the death of John the Baptist is that he is really linking Jesus to John, that he’s really linking Jesus in the line of prophets and the prophetic tradition.

3 (4m 52s):
And also he’s naming again that like these are prophets who are going up against the politically powerful, that it’s not just about spirituality or belief that it’s actually a direct confrontation of the political powers. And so that’s why we get this kind of strange and misplaced John the Baptist story. Anything about that story that that co that sticks out for you, Brian? Well, it reminds me of reading like my a DHD fused journal where I’m like, oh, wait, hold on. I’m like, I’m skipping all around. One thing that comes up for me is, you know, I know that like James Cohen talks a lot about sort of like the cross and the lynching tree and like Jesus as a, as a, a lynched black man and sort of like drawing parallels between the Jesus story and the experience of like violent, racist, anti-black racism in the us.

3 (5m 47s):
But I’m also thinking about like, sort of like with that in the background, the death of John the Baptist and the deaths of many people over the past, I mean like millennia, like centuries, but also in the past like decade or so of, of Trayvon Martin and George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and sort of like these moments where people dying become part of like ca like capitalisms to social to more aggressive or more infused social movements, or they become sort of like a rallying point. And I like, I don’t wanna say that like either like John the Baptist or like any of the black people that are killed by police in the US like need quote unquote like needed to die in order to sort of like fulfill some like weird manuscript of like divine manuscript.

3 (6m 35s):
But I’m just like noting that like, just descriptively, this is like something that has happened in the past and continues to have echoes today of like the state is violent. Like the state was, like the state was violent, then the state is violent now. The state kills people, the state then like the state kills people now. And in response to those deaths, people, you know, rise up and cry out to demand a more just world. So that is one thing that that pops up for me. And that is very clear in one of the other gospels. It it’s different in Matthew’s narrative, but in, i, I can’t remember if it’s Mark or if it’s Luke, but where the death or where, where the arrest of John the Baptist is really the thing that like pushes Jesus into public ministry that before that he had been kind of on the sidelines still preparing.

3 (7m 25s):
And so I think that your point is, is really right and, and it’s both, I think that like there are these moments that radicalize us and others, and then there is also a, like a mantle has been dropped and it needs to be picked up. And I think that that that is both like the, the trauma of, of needing to continually be in activism work and also like how deeply we are connected to one another that that the pa that that kind of passing of a torch matters and, and is important. Amen.

3 (8m 5s):
And so we, we run from the death of John the Baptist into the feeding of the 5,000. And this is such a fascinating story because again, we have the author of Matthew who’s trying to make really, really specific points about this story. This isn’t just a miracle story. This is, there are all of these references to things that happened in the story of the Israelites that, that the author of Matthew was trying to say that like, again, Jesus is continuing in this tradition. And so we have echoes of when Eisha provided food after the death of Elijah.

3 (8m 51s):
And so here we have Jesus providing food after the death of John. Again, this sense of picking up the prophetic mantle. Yeah, we have a, a counter picture of the, the story of the manna and the wilderness when the, when the folks were fed in the wilderness, but the then the rule was like, you can’t take more than that day share, right? If you take more than what you need for that day, it’s gonna go bad. But here we have a story where all of these leftovers are collected and saved. And so it seems to be saying like in the new world, in this new world order, hunger is replaced by extravagance. That daily sustenance is replaced by everyone having enough all the time.

3 (9m 36s):
And that there’s an abundance, which I think is just really beautiful. And there have also been people who talked about how, you know, when, when the people were arranged in, in groups of 500, that these, that that number is really important and that Jesus is arranging the people in military companies, which is definitely not something I was taught no. In my evangelical church growing up. Yeah. And so that was a moment for me when I read that and I read that in a commentary and I was like, oh, well that changes things, right? Like again, we have this sense of Rome, the political powers, they’re the ones that are supposed to be providing bread for the people and they’re not.

3 (10m 22s):
And so we are gonna step up and do it. And I think about it makes me think about how often like mutual aid movements have stepped in where government agencies, where politicians, where, you know, quote unquote safety nets that are really never safety nets have failed and, and how much of a responsibility we have to take care of one another. Yeah, that reminds me of like the Black Panthers like a, you know, the way that they organize and also like, not just like, I think for many of us, the image of Black Panthers is like a sort of like militaristic presence, but also like, like providing community safety, providing, you know, food, lunches, meal breakfast for, for kids, like a huge social services network that I was not taught.

3 (11m 18s):
And so I, I sort of like see echos of that also, you know, we are constantly talking about like, you like just picking up the Bible and trying to read a passage that it is like trying to pick up Shakespeare. Like you can understand the, the words on the page, but like you’re gonna be missing so much of the context and the nuance. And actually sometimes you might totally misunderstand things because like you don’t understand that the, like the the such and structure or the, that actually like, this is a, this is a sort of coded language or a coded joke about something. And I, you know, I I was at a Shabbat morning service a few, a few months ago and the Hto portion was about this, this scene from Alicia and I, I came home and I took, I think I texted you and I was like, oh my God, did you know that in the Hebrew Bible there’s also this story?

3 (12m 2s):
And you were like, yes, Brian, obviously I need that. But it was even news to me that I’m still, you know, I I been, I studied religion undergrad, I had been like, you know, doing this work at re com for almost a decade now, and I’m still learning more stuff. And so this is a, like an is something that you like need to like put some time and effort to sort of like pick apart what you’re reading and also like b an ongoing practice, which I think rather than feeling like, oh my God, it takes so much work, like this is so hard. I look at it as like, oh my God, this is like so exciting. There’s always more to learn. There’s always sort of like more juice to squeeze out of the orange. You can continue sort of like coming back and discovering new stuff.

3 (12m 43s):
And so I, I really sort of like dig this, this work of like finding like, what more can I learn the more that I learn about the historical context or these sort of echoes of the Hebrew Bible or these parallels to Rome, it just sort of makes it come alive that much more for me.

Queer Sociology (13m 1s):
And I can quickly plug, if you’re sort of like digging this podcast series and like, you know, digging these sort of like things are pointing out and you like wanna be able to do this with some other passage, some other book that’s not the gospel of Matthew. We have a, a workshop called Digging the Details that is all about how to sort of like do this process yourself. We walk you through that and you get to sort of like pick pick your own passage. You can find more about that at queer sociology.com/digging.

3 (13m 25s):
Yeah. So with that session, Shane, like, teach me more. Yeah. And I, and I think that your point is, is really well made Brian in that like it’s, it, there’s always more to uncover. It’s a lot of fun. We always encourage people to follow your curiosity. Like this doesn’t have to be a dry, academic burdensome homework assignment, right. That you could like follow the things that that spark your curiosity. But I do think that like approaching the Bible in this way is a fundamental shift for those of us who grew up thinking that, you know, it’s all just gonna make sense, right? We’re just gonna open up the text and it’s gonna speak to exactly where we are today.

3 (14m 9s):
And I just don’t think that that’s the, a good way to read the Bible, which isn’t to say that, that you might not, which isn’t to say that it, that will never happen, right? Like you might open up the text and find a word of encouragement that does seem to speak exactly to where you are at the moment. But it is like a, this is a different posture towards wrestling with texts and it, it is a little bit more work and also I find it to be a lot more fun and a lot more rich than like hoping that some passage is gonna speak to me. That it, it feels more, I don’t know, it just, there’s just more like there’s more meat to it, right?

3 (14m 53s):
Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is really important. And I would also add that like when I do this work, it makes it so that like basically any passage has like something to say about like the present moment and where I’m at because like there’s just like, they’re actually so rich and there’s like so much going on and when you approach them as sort of like three dimensional stories with context and different characters in them in depth, like there’s always a way in. And so actually doing a little bit of work, I think if you’re, if you want the Bible to sort of be like, I don’t know, like a love letter to you or inspiration to you, I actually think that like doing this work makes it more of that, not less of that.

3 (15m 35s):
Yeah. So we moved then from the feeding the 5,000 to Jesus walking on the water, which is kind of a fascinating little snippet. And some of the things that commentators have said is that this is one of the first times that Jesus sends the disciples on ahead of him. Like he tells them to get in a boat and they go and, and then there is, you know, this big piece about Jesus having, being able to walk on water, which again is, is kind of a, a callback to Rome and to power that it was considered that the gods were the ones who had control over nature. And so for Jesus to be able to walk on water is putting him in that place with the gods.

3 (16m 20s):
Yeah. Yes. And that then this, this sense of like, that like Peter’s lack of faith that he got out on the water and sank. One of the commentaries I was reading was like if Peter had actually had faith, like it wasn’t that Peter didn’t have faith and so he sank, it’s that Peter should have had faith before getting outta the boat that he should have just stayed in the boat and like recognized the divinity of Jesus and that Jesus was gonna walk toward him, which I thought was kind of funny. And also like shows how differently you can interpret these texts, these passages, that this is just a small snippet that, that commentators have been like arguing about and coming up with different ideas around for like forever.

3 (17m 8s):
Yeah. ’cause mine was, the way that I was taught was definitely like, you might have, you might have faith in Jesus now, but if you take your eyes off of the prize for like one second, you are in danger of like sinking and drowning into the ocean. Right? Right. But even if you do that, like if you, if Jesus will like, still wants to save you, so like, you know, be careful. Right. Okay. Yeah. So we moved then from Jesus walking on the water to again, a really important but also fraught story where it’s basically a giant argument between Jesus and his disciples and the Pharisees all about ritual purity.

3 (17m 52s):
And again, we just wanna keep driving this home over and over again. So this is an intercommunal argument that this particular community, these Jesus followers were breaking off of the tradition that they had once held. And so it’s really important that we not continue to feed into antisemitism by, for instance, making the Pharisees bad guys in all of our stories or in complaining about other Christian groups by calling them pharisees. Like that is just not helpful. It’s not good and it’s not the best practice for this because we’re Christians and like we’re, we like descend from that heritage.

3 (18m 33s):
Like that is the story, those are the stories that we get told. But like the Pharisees, like both now, like rabbinic Judaism now and also the Pharisees at the time of Jesus we’re also like wrestling with a lot of these same questions and answering them in like sometimes similar ways, sometimes different ways. Like I’m thinking back just to earlier the story of the feeding the 5,000 and you were sort of like, it’s a counter picture to the manna that couldn’t be saved. And like Farris said, Judaism and Rabbi Judaism has also wrestled with that story from the Torah of like, what does it mean that like we can’t save up enough and that it spoils and like what type of God does that depict? And, and coming up with new understandings of that as well.

3 (19m 17s):
So there also like if there’s something that like Jesus is annoyed act, it’s also sometimes the case that like the Pharisees were also annoyed in that same thing. They just like were answering it in different ways. It’s also sometimes the case that they’re very true and distinct differences between, between the two of them that are, and that are important not to gloss over, but just like to remember that like we are only told part of the story. Yeah. And I think that brings up the, the, the thing that I wanna discuss, which is like, what does it look like to hold in good tension, differing beliefs? Yeah. And how do we disagree well without demonizing others. And I think that like there’s, there’s a little bit of both ands here, right?

3 (20m 2s):
Yeah. As we’re recording this, the New York Times is coming under fire for it’s like ridiculously months and months and months of transphobic reporting. And their response to op-ed that, or the response to an open letter that was calling them out on their transphobic reporting was to basically say like, I don’t know, we’re just trying to like both sides this thing, right? Like we’re trying to give equal, equal side to trans people and to people that should say that say trans people don’t, shouldn’t exist. And then of course the also the very next day they post an op-ed in defense of JK rally.

3 (20m 43s):
So we can see Yeah, they’re not actually like both sizing it and also on some issues. There are not two sides, right? There is like Right, and there is genocide and, and then there are times when like we are in a religious tradition where we believe one thing and that another tradition, another thing, and that those beliefs are fundamentally incompatible, right? Either you believe that Jesus’, that that the Eucharist becomes Jesus’s body and blood or you don’t like both of those things can’t really be true at the same time.

3 (21m 25s):
And also like we can be in relationship with people who believe different things about the Eucharist without it being like turning violent. So how, how do you wrestle with, with those things? How do you decide what’s a like deal breaker and where, where you can be in conversation with people and how do we do this? Well? Oh man, what a question. I think that that is a question that has been on my heart probably for like, for as long as queer theology.com has existed. I think like the, the sort of, you know, ongoing question that I think that I personally have within myself that we also sometimes hopefully have is sort of like what, like what makes someone a Christian?

3 (22m 10s):
Like what does it mean to be a Christian? And like how do we draw our lines? And I think also this relates to to queerness too, right? Like what does it mean to be queer? How do we draw our lines? Like what is sort of like an essential part of queerness? What is an essential part of Christianity? And also like that like changes over time perhaps that like we understand queerness differently now than we did 10 years, 20 years ago, a hundred years ago. Like certainly the range of sort of like mainstream Christian believes in practice has evolved over time, especially as that sort of has become democratized and moved away from like a central authority in Rome to, you know, the process of affirmation and sort of becoming an individual religion.

3 (22m 56s):
And so I, I think that like, there’s an element of, for me, an element of like, I don’t know everything and I can’t know everything. There’s an element of like, this feels right and true for me. This is something that I want to, like, I like, I wanna act as if this is true and orient my life in this manner. And I think part of it also comes down to sort of like with all that said, like listening to when someone else says, well that’s all well and good, but like the way that you’re living out that belief about what you believe to be true, like is impacting me and causing me harm.

3 (23m 46s):
And so like then what do you do? Like I’m thinking about right? Like evangelical Christians, like really, truly, some of them really truly believe that if you don’t say the prayer and you don’t stop having gay sex, you are going to like burn in hell for all eternity. So it like on some level like makes sense that they then evangelize people and try to get people to stop having gay sex because like they are some people, I think more so people on the pews than the political leaders who are manipulating these causes for power and money and control and prestige. But like, you know, like your grandma might earnestly believe or your grandfather like might earnestly believe or your, your, your brother might earnestly believe just to be true, right?

3 (24m 35s):
And so like then like then what do you do with that? And where do you go from there? Like do you, and so there’s a little bit of like, I think for me, like, like listening to people when they say like, this is harming me. And also like an informed consent model of like, yeah, I hear that you are concerned about the state of my eternal soul. I relinquish responsibility. You don’t, you don’t have to worry about that any longer. So I think that’s perhaps like part of the equation. What would you, what would you add to that Jay? Yeah, I, I think all of what you said is really important and I think too that, that there is something to be learned from often, like the differences that feel incompatible, that teach me something.

3 (25m 24s):
And I’m thinking specifically of like religious differences. And this is both like within denominations of Christianity, but also like in interfaith work that there’s something I I can really learn from learn the ways in which someone else doesn’t believe the things that I do. And that doesn’t mean that I have to like stop believing them necessarily unless you, like you said, they’re harmful. But it does mean that, that it helps me to articulate why about this thing is so important to me and also like what, how it shapes my life and orients my life differently. And I think that that’s really important. Yeah. Like I, you know, I, I know a amongst many progressive Christians like universal salvation, like is an important component of that faith.

3 (26m 12s):
And I on Twitter, someone who is not, who is not Christian, I tweeted something to the effect of like, no, I don’t think that everyone gets to like live in paradise wherever. I, I do think that there is some people who like, like deserve to be and will be sort of like burning in hell thinking about sort of like war criminals, leaders of genocides, et cetera. Like you don’t get off the hook for that. And I, like, in that moment I sort of had to like sit with like, what do I, I don’t have to like, oh, well this other person who’s not a Christian said this, so now I have to believe that. But it did sort of like, it wa it was sort of a moment to sort of like sit with that uncomfortability. And I think the times in which someone has said something that wildly diverges from what I believe are how I think has been really meaningful for me, sometimes it helps me to sort of clarify what I do believe and to articulate that better.

3 (27m 6s):
And sometimes it sort of becomes like a conversion moment. You know, many, many, many years ago, like a, a friend said to me like, you know, like all cops are bastards and police are sites of violence that like, are like a net site of net sources of violence in our communities. And I was like, what? And over time I’m like, like that is a moment where I like did change. But there have been other times when people have said things and it’s like, oh, I hear you. I can unappreciate that perspective. Like that may might add some more nuance to what I believe and I might articulate it slightly differently. But ultimately the kernel of what I, this just sort of clarifies that for me at least, this is, is what I believe. And there are some things right where like, I don’t know if you believe someone goes to hell or you don’t believe someone goes to hell, like, especially someone who’s already dead, right?

3 (27m 50s):
Like they can’t, it’s too late for ’em to get saved. Our thoughts about that doesn’t actually change that. But then how do we like live that out in the world? What, how does that sort of like infuse how we then move through the world? And I think like paying attention like Jesus talked about in Matthew seven, like the fruits of the fruits of your theology. How does that play out in the real world? Alright, so we move from this, we’re we’re Trek and Ray Long to a story that has, we’ve talked about in the podcast before. It’s one where Jesus basically calls a Canaanite woman a dog. And there have been lots and lots of, again, this is a passage where hundreds of thousands of people have been debating upon its meeting over the years.

3 (28m 34s):
I I do think that this is a moment where we see Jesus kind of growing in his own understanding of his mission. And also it’s a moment once again where the author of Matthew is highlighting that outsiders are welcome in this new movement, right through all of Matthew, we have this series of outsiders, the the women who are mentioned in the genealogy, several of whom were outsiders, who who are grafted in to the Jewish community. We have the magi who are the ones who come to see the infant Jesus again, outsiders.

3 (29m 14s):
Now we have this, this moment where Jesus is praising, it takes him a while to get there, but eventually praising the faith of a Canaanite woman. And I, and I think that again that that this arc of towards more inclusion is, is really important to the author of Matthew and should be important to us as, as followers of Jesus. That, that this is a, a moment to pay attention to the people who are normally considered outsiders, who Jesus centers. Yeah. When I first heard about this story, it was very much like, well of course I don’t know, like Jesus could obviously do no wrong. And then I heard sort of a more liberal interpretation of this, where it was like this became a moment where Jesus like learns and grows.

3 (30m 3s):
And then I heard an additional commentary that was sort of speculating that there’s like a little bit of a, like a setup here that like perhaps like that Jesus was always about inclusion and that this exchange between the two of them, like you said, it took them a while to get there, but was like a setup, sort of like setting her up to sort of make the point and sort of that it was like partially for the benefit, not for the benefit of, but it was sort of like, like a little like a dog and pony show for the audience that was there, which I don’t know what to make of that, but just sort of like, it’s got, it’s got me noodling. Yeah, for sure. So after this encounter with the Canaanite woman, we have another feeding story feeding up the 4,000 this time.

3 (30m 50s):
And we’re, I’m gonna gloss over the next couple of things because many of the things that we talked about earlier are repeated. So we have this feeding of the 4,000, we have then a bunch of people who come to Jesus looking for a sign. And then we have Jesus kind of pushing back against the people who are looking for a sign. And he said something to his followers about, about yeast, like, don’t, don’t concentrate on the yeast. And the disciples misunderstand what he’s saying to them. They don’t take it as a metaphor, they take it literally and they say to him like, but we didn’t bring any bread.

3 (31m 34s):
We forgot the bread. And I’m just like so struck by this passage because it, for me, it’s, it’s a, it’s like hysterical, but it’s also like, can you imagine Jesus’s annoyance? He’s like, I just fed a total of 9,000 people and you ding-dongs are like, we forgot the bread. Like, are you not paying attention? Yeah. And I, but I think that also, like that’s kind of the point, right? Of like, there are all of these moments where things have worked out, when things have been good, where we’ve been provided for, and then we immediately go back into that kind of scarcity mindset of oh shit, we forgot the bread.

3 (32m 20s):
And I, and I think that that’s like Jesus is getting at something very human with these folks, but also like we have a very human response too in that. Yeah, I think, you know, I I I wanna hear someone say that like when, when times are bad, it’s sort of our human nature to think that they will never get bad, they never get good again. And that when times are good that it’s about like they’re about to turn bad and it’s, and like all the goodness that we, we just experienced is about to go away. And so I definitely sort of like see that human impulse that I know I experienced like playing out here as well. Yeah. And now we’re, we’re heading into the very kind of final section of these chapters. And it’s important to note that this is the exact center of the gospel of Matthew.

3 (33m 6s):
So we’re at the dead middle of Matthew’s narrative of Jesus’s story. And we have a really fascinating encounter between Jesus and Peter in particular. Jesus asks his disciples, who do people say that I’m? And they come out with this like range of things. Like some say that you’re John the Baptist resurrected, some say that you are Elijah, some say that you’re Moses. And then Jesus asks them, who do you say that I’m? And Peter comes back with, you are the Messiah, the Son of God.

3 (33m 48s):
And then it’s after that that Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom, says, anything you bind on earth will be bound. Anything you unloose will be unlost. But this is what strikes me as really fascinating about this portion amidst all of the flowery language. It’s also after Peter’s declaration of who Jesus is, that Jesus starts to talk about, okay, like now we’re heading to Jerusalem, we’re, we’re going to the center of power to confront the powers that be. And I think that this is fascinating because it strikes me that it’s only after Peter says something treasonous, right?

3 (34m 35s):
Peter has just now said, you are the Lord, not Caesar, you are God, not Caesar like this. This isn’t a theological statement. We’re not entirely a theological statement. This is a political statement and it’s a political statement that could get you killed. Like, yeah, this is treason. And it’s only after Peter commits treason that Jesus says, okay, now we’re heading to Jerusalem. Now you’re in this like now, now we’re gonna go on our real work, which is to confront the powers directly and we’re gonna travel there and we’re gonna go together. And it’s also right after this that Jesus says, take up your cross and follow me.

3 (35m 20s):
Mm. And so this is not a, like, I, I think that we have been so conditioned to read this text taxed with like the end, Jesus’s end in mind as if Jesus is the only person that was crucified and he wasn’t right. Like crucifixion was the thing that Rome did to anyone who committed treason. Anyone who tried to go against the powers that be anyone who tried to be a rebel. It was public because it scared other people and made them get into line, right? Like it was a public execution to quell rebellion. I think about like the Hunger Games, right?

3 (36m 1s):
It’s like this is what was happening. So when Jesus says to Peter and the disciples take up your cross and follow me, he’s not talking about like, I don’t know, be miserable or like suffer. He is saying, okay, now we’re confronting the powers that be. Are you willing to go with me even though it’s gonna get us all killed? Right? That’s the question. Yeah. And so for me that makes this passage, this isn’t, again, this isn’t just like some trite theological thing about suffering for Jesus. This is like, what are the crosses you are being called to take up today?

3 (36m 41s):
Like what treasonous acts are you being asked to participate in? Are you willing to participate in, to bring about the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven? And that to me is a much more challenging question. It’s a much more uncomfortable question. And I think that is the question that we’re being asked to wrestle with and like that’s how this text is still speaking. Yeah. I’m seeing this text and I mean, I’ve seen this text, this passage, you know, whole new way a few to times over the course of my life. And this is one of those sort of like another revelation moment where it’s not like you’re going to be burdened with this for the rest of your, like being gay is just sort of like a burden you have to live with for the rest of your live long days.

3 (37m 24s):
Right? Or what will you give up? It’s like act as if you’re already dead. Like, and like you like taking up your cross is like, okay, like now that, like now that you’ve resigned yourself to like dying for this cause like, then what does that free you up to do? And like, holy shit. Like I, that’s a big, that is a big charge that like, I don’t know if I’m up for it. I dunno if many of us are up for that, right? But, but I also think, right, like it’s so often this, this passage is you like wielded against vulnerable people, right?

3 (38m 5s):
Like your abusive marriage, the abusive marriage that you’re in, woman is like your cross to bear, your sexuality queer people is your cross to bear. And actually it’s like quite the flip side, it’s like, like being willing to give up all of the things that keep you safe and make you powerful and to like orient yourself to a confrontation with the empire and to like resign yourself to like, oh yeah, this is the thing that’s gonna, that’s gonna kill me. It reminds me of there’s this incredible scene in how to survive a plague. It’s it’s documentary footage of back from like in the eighties and, and nineties, I believe it was, it was probably like, like mid nine, early mid nineties.

3 (38m 53s):
And there’s this clip of Peter Staley, there’s a bunch of like aids and Act Up organizers sort of like planning their next action. And Peter Staley in this clip says like, I’m gonna die from this. Like this is it. Like I’m gonna die from this.

5 (39m 5s):
I’ve felt forever now that I’m not gonna outlive this epidemic that I will, that I will die from this.

6 (39m 10s):
You know, maybe that is

7 (39m 11s):
Our future that we’re gonna watch each other die. It’s, that’s not a new thought. We’ve been thinking that ever since we started the group.

6 (39m 19s):
The way the recent spate of deaths is, I don’t know, it’s, it all seems so much more apocalyptic. Like the story doesn’t seem to have this relationship to effective treatment or a cure anymore. It now seems to have this relationship to death. It iss it ends with everybody dying. We’re the last person alive and Chelsea please turn out the lights.

3 (39m 40s):
And so like there was a bunch of like faggots in the nineties who were like, had death sentences and then that freed them up to do like wild and crazy things to like, so that others might live. And the, the wildest part of all of it is that like some of them ended up living Peter Staley is obviously still alive and thriving and that like, but there was just this sort of like gravity of like, we’re done. But like, rather than being defeated by that, channeling that into like a higher purpose and a higher and a higher power so that like, so that others might live,

5 (40m 17s):
I’d like to close with words written by fellow AIDS activists Vito Russo, when future generations ask what we did in the war, we have to be able to tell them that we were out here fighting and we have to leave a legacy to the generations of people who will come after us. Remember that someday the AIDS crisis will be over and when that day has come and gone, there will be a people alive on this earth. Gay people and straight people, black people and white people, men and women who will hear the story that once there was a terrible disease and that a brave group of people stood up and fought and in some cases died so that others might live and be three.

3 (41m 6s):
Yeah, there’s something there. I I think your point is well made too, because it’s also like, it’s not a surprise that the people that were willing to follow Jesus are the fishermen and the tax collectors and the people with nothing else to lose. Right? Because they didn’t have to give up anything. And I think that’s why we so often see stories in the gospels of like rich people who walk away sad. I, okay, like you’re welcome, you’re welcome to join the movement. This is what it’s gonna take. And people are like, oh actually, like I don’t, that’s that’s not really what I wanted. I wanted to like make a couple donations out of my excess and then go home feeling good about myself.

3 (41m 53s):
And, and so I think that that is like the continued call of like, this isn’t, this isn’t a, a cheap faith, this isn’t an easy answer. And it’s also I think why so many people are much more interested in getting lots and lots of people to pray a prayer and to think of all of their religious, you know, commitment as Bible reading, prayer, going to church because like what is really required is marching upon the halls of power and saying, this isn’t working like this. You’re, you’re hurting people.

3 (42m 35s):
And, and we’re not gonna stand for that. And that is a much scarier and much more demanding and much more, it requires a lot more of us to do that work. And so, yeah, I I think that that for, for anyone with any type of privilege that this call is even harder than it is for people who have already lost so much. Yeah. Jesus is here to make your life easier as a much easier sales pitch than like follow Jesus. It might get you in prison or killed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think too though, this is also a moment where we have so much to learn from the people that have come before us, right?

3 (43m 15s):
Like I think about those act up protesters. I think about Philip and Daniel Barrigan who burned draft files in Vietnam very much out of a sense of their religious fervor, right? Their, they were quoted as saying better, the better the files than the bodies of children. Like it was very much out of their faith that they went and did this act of destruction and desecration and they paid for it, right? They spent years upon years upon years in jail over many, many different prison sentences. ’cause they kept getting, as soon as they got out, they kept going back and doing more destruction.

3 (43m 57s):
But I do think that like this also really confronts people who are like, well, we, we just need to be respectable. Respectable. We just need to vote democratic. We just need to like do the nice political things that make us good citizens. And it’s like, actually maybe what you’re being called to do is commit some treason and burn some draft files and find other ways to make some holy trouble. And that that’s, that’s what it is to take up your cross. The Queer Theology podcast is just

8 (44m 31s):
One of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

4 (44m 38s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll

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See you next week.

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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

1 (32s):
Alright, for this episode, our little two part series on sex and relationships, we want to take a look at a lot of the questions that we’ve gotten over the years about sex and dating and how that intersects with Christianity. A few years ago, my, one of my, my then boyfriend, we were having a conversation about sex and, and queer theology.com and he said, wait, people like strangers on the internet ask you if it’s okay to masturbate and then like what you say back to them matters to them. And I was like, yep, that is, that is something that happens. And so today we wanna look at sort of like broadly at questions like, what does the Bible say about sex?

1 (1m 15s):
Is it okay to masturbate? Is it okay to have premarital sex? Is polyamory okay? Is kink okay? Like, is like insert x, y, Z thing that you might want to do with yourself, with and or with someone else inside and or outside of, of the bedroom in some form of like vaguely sexual and or romantic and or kinky context. And I think that, right? Like say Shea, you have a, a master’s in divinity from Union Theological Seminary in the city of New York, like one of the, you know, premier seminaries in the world. And so like, I’m sure you could give us like a verse by verse breakdown or like an issue by issue breakdown of like, here’s like what the Bible says or, or doesn’t say about masturbation or sex before marriage or sex outside of marriage.

1 (2m 1s):
And we’ve actually gone through a lot of those in our tricky questions about sex workshop, which like looks at each one of those questions that are all user, all listeners submitted questions about sex that we really sort like a one question at a time. But what I want to explore today is like what the, sort of like what happens after that af after you sort of, because I’m sure you’ve had a lot of these conversations. What happens when you tell someone your perspective on what the Bible says about X, Y, z sex related things? So like the, like, then, then where does that leave them? I,

3 (2m 40s):
I think that this is so fascinating, right? Because in many ways this is the same conversation that we have around the collaborative passages. Yeah. Right? Yep. And, and so we’ve got a workshop on that one too, collaborating the clobbers, which which looks at each of those versus and takes them one by one. And, and what we have found in both cases is that like the, this idea is stemming from, I, I think an, an evangelical impulse and frankly an evangelical like teaching that there is a, there is indeed a Bible verse for everything. And that if you can just find the right Bible verse, you will know what to do with your life.

3 (3m 25s):
And so the first thing to say is that like, again, the Bible was not meant to be read in that way. Like that is not how we use the Bible. And so even if you can find chapter and verse, that’s, that’s probably not the best way to read scripture. And what it does is that that still like puts the kind of locus of authority outside of us, right? It, it gives away our ability to really think through who we are as people, what we need and what we want. And, and puts that kind of puts it out there somewhere.

3 (4m 6s):
Like someone can tell us what we can do and if we just follow the rules will be okay. And like the hard thing about life, and I think the hard thing about faith is that like, it’s not just about following a set of rules, right? That, that the Christian life is about an orientation towards being concerned with the things that Jesus and God are concerned about. And that sometimes the ways that we live them that out is gonna look different than the ways that other people are gonna live that out. Right? And that’s, that’s complicated and it’s messy and it requires a lot of us to, to wade through all of that.

3 (4m 46s):
I mean, just thinking about like outside of the realm of sexuality, like the way that we live out our Christian ethics under capitalism, it’s gonna look different, huge for different people, right? Yeah. And it’s complicated and it’s messy. And there are moments where we are making the best decision with what we’ve got at the moment, even though it’s not the best kingdom of God decision, right? And like, it, it gets complicated. And so all of that, to bring us back to sex, to say that like, these questions about what you can and cannot do are more complicated than, yes masturbation is 100% always okay, or no, it’s not right.

3 (5m 28s):
That sometimes the, the answer might be, well, it depends. And like, what work have you done to think about when is it right for you? What are the ethics that you’re trying to live out? And so instead of, instead of going to a chapter in verse, it’s a, it’s a much more complicated and broad idea of what does it look like for you to follow your faith with your body in relationship to your sexuality and in relationship to other people and their bodies and their sexuality.

1 (6m 5s):
Yeah. One of the things that we were really clear about when we started queer theology.com, god, at this 0.9 years ago, was that we don’t want folks to substitute what their pastor told them about their Bible for what we tell them about the Bible. That we think part of about being like honestly a person really like a Christian, definitely, but also like a person in general is like figuring out how do you relate to the bible, to faith, to spirituality, to your sexuality, to your gender, to your sexual and romantic life that like, it’s important for you to claim that because like we can tell you like, it’s okay to masturbate usually most of the time probably, or like, you know, well when you’re talking about sex outside of marriage, like what is the other person?

1 (6m 48s):
What, who is the other person? Like what are they, what are they wanting? There’s lots of these questions, you know, like how to, like what place that sex have in your life, how does it make you feel about your body? Like what work are you doing on that? There’s like you were saying, it’s, it’s so, it’s like it’s, there’s so many factors in it and that it’s like, I don’t know, like it’s a lot easier, right? If to to to say like, don’t ever have sex or like true love weights or it’s also a lot easier to say sex is always good all the time and you should have as, as much as you can all the time without any regard for anyone else. Like, but like, I don’t, like, I don’t think, I don’t know any progressive Christian really that that’s like saying that, right? Like, like the both, like the beauty and also the challenge of being a, like intentional Christian, a progressive Christian, a queer Christian is that like we recognize that like life is complicated and that like sex can be messy and that like relationships always have the possibility for like beauty and grace and creation, and they also have the possibility in them for harm and destruction.

1 (7m 53s):
And so like navigating that tightrope like is tricky, but that’s also like what it means to be human. And so I think like when I hear folks asking about, you know, is it okay to have sex before marriage? What does the Bible say about masturbation? What does the Bible say about king? Usually what’s happening is if you’re asking that question, there’s some sort of like nagging in you of like, is this okay? Am I all right? And that usually comes down to like a fear of like hell or a fear of like pa like pissing off God, if I step out of line, God will remove god’s love from me.

1 (8m 35s):
Or if I step out of line, I will go to hell. Or maybe not specifically connected to anger or damnation, but just sort of this, this, this fear of like, there is something inherently wrong or disordered about me is wanting to have this type of sex or sex in this type of way or sex with this person. Like inherently disordered like, and I, and I, like I am 37, I am, I would call myself like an ethical slut. I’m like polyamorous. I’ve been in a stable long-term relationship for almost 14 years now. Like, and also sometimes I’m like, Ooh, like I want someone to put something in my butt.

1 (9m 16s):
Like, does that make me gross? Or you know, and like when it’s a stranger, like on the internet, it’s like, sometimes it’s much easier. But sometimes my, my partner who I’ve been having gay sex with for 14 years, there even sometimes I worry like, oh no, like, will he still love me if like I want to bottom for instance, you know? And like the answer to that is not in like, I don’t know, Lamentations 1218 or like pick up. I like the, the like the answer to that question is like not going, am I okay? Am I lovable? Am I whole and worthy?

1 (9m 57s):
Like, there’s not a chapter in verse for you specifically. I think that there are lots of chapters and verses that talk about sort of like the divine spark in us and God’s love for us and our place in the world and our interconnectedness. But like the answer to like, am I going to hell, will God hate me? Am I gross? Will my partner stop loving me? Is not going to be solved by asking like, what does the Bible say about masturbation or what does the Bible say about kink? And so part of it is like figuring out the work that you have to do before you can even hear and appreciate the answers to what does the Bible say about sex or kink or consent. And that’s like a lot of self work.

3 (10m 36s):
Yeah. And it’s, it’s like I, I think sometimes people think that just because I’m a super nerd about the Bible, that that’s why I’m always telling people to learn to read the Bible better and, and encouraging people to like do the journey into the Bible course. And, and it’s both a yes and right, like, yes, because I’m a nerd and because I find it really fun. But also that I do think if you learn to read scripture better, it, it takes away some of the angst around trying to find a chapter in verse. And along with that, I, I think what what you were just talking about is so profound and beautiful, and part of what that makes me think of like is if you can start to shift your own posture away from inherently disordered to inherently good and trusting that like you are already good, that you reside in goodness that God loves you, then it opens up a space for you to have a conversation about, okay, if, if like anything that I do is not gonna cause me to lose God’s love or to lose my inherent goodness, what might I then want to do with my body?

3 (11m 54s):
How might I want to explore? What might that look like for me? And it also allows you to have grace for yourself in the moments when you try something that doesn’t work or that you didn’t enjoy or that doesn’t feel good, right? And I, and I think that like we often talk about, listen, if it’s based in mutual respect and consent, like have at it. And, and I think that there is a, there is a moment to say that here too of like, it, if it’s based in mutual consent and respect, you’re not gonna lose God’s favor. But it’s a, but it is a lot easier for us to say that than it is for you to have done the work, to actually believe that, to believe in your inherent goodness, to, to move from a posture of fear to one of love, right?

3 (12m 49s):
And I think that that takes work that’s not just around sexuality. It’s, it is around like, how do we read the Bible? How do we understand God? How do we understand Jesus? How do we understand salvation, right? Like all of these huge theological issues that rear their ugly heads when we’re in bed with someone and suddenly that shame comes up, right? And it’s like, it, it’d be nice. I would love to, to be able to say like, there’s just a simple formula. There’s a prayer you can pray, there’s a verse you can read. Yeah, there’s a lecture you can listen to by a pastor and that’s gonna make all of this go away.

3 (13m 32s):
But the truth is like, it, it, it’s not that easy and it takes work, but also it is possible. Like I, I, I mean I grew up in indoctrinated in the height of purity culture in a fundamentalist evangelical church. And like I have worked through shame, right? So I’m, I it is possible yeah, to do that work to get there, but it does take time.

1 (13m 60s):
Yeah. There, you and I are both huge like book nerds. And so, you know, like we get, like you were saying, there’s not a formula, right? Like, it’s not just like, do this or do that. And so like we, you know, there’s not any like one book or one lecture or one prayer or one checklist that’s going to, to sort of like unlock this for you. Like you were saying, you have to take ownership over this process. So I like, I, there’s been a few books for me that have along the way that have been helpful. And it’s funny because like most of these books are not even about sex, but they get to that sort of underlying question of like, you know, like, am I okay? Am I good? Made for Goodness by Desmond Tutu, damaged, good by Dee Anderson, original Blessing by Matthew Fox can sort of all get at, you know, those, that first and last one or like really get at those questions of like, who are we?

1 (14m 47s):
And, and like how does God relate to us? And also what has happened for me in the past and what I’ve seen for folks that we’ve worked with inside of Sanctuary Collective or in our courses or our coaching is that like the, the reading only gets you so far, right? Like at some point you have to like, put the book down and like put what you’ve learned and to practice and you have to like get back into your body. And so if you like, wanna like read these books or read other books, listen to our podcasts and then like figure out how to take action on your own. Like, if we could leave you with one thing, it would be to not just like consume the information, but to take action on them. And if you find that you’ve like read the books and you’d like, listened to the podcast and you’ve like watched the sermons and you’re still getting like, you’re still feeling shame, you’re still feeling uncertain, you still have all these like big questions that are unanswered or these big uncertainties, reach out to us and we will talk with you about some ways that we can support you in moving from like thinking and worrying to living out your ethics and your values and sort of getting back in touch with your body and making this as like a self-directed process.

1 (15m 54s):
So you can email us connected queer theology.com or send us a DM on any of our platform social media as a YouTube and Instagram, Twitter, Facebook.

3 (16m 4s):
And I think this is just another moment to, to remind us that all of all of the work that we do is integrated, right? The integration of our sexuality and gender identity into our spirituality, the way that we read the Bible, the theological work that we do, the justice work that we do. Like it’s all, it all comes together and it, it’s all about getting us to integration and to health and wholeness and that all of these pieces work together. And, and it’s impossible to separate out one and hope to find wholeness. And so, so do the work, do it all together, do it in community with us.

3 (16m 45s):
We’re rooting for you and we want to see you healthy and well and whole.

1 (16m 49s):
Amen.

4 (16m 51s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To

2 (16m 60s):
Dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

4 (17m 7s):
We’ll see you next week.

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Find more of Rev. Dr. Justin at: https://www.unitedseminary.edu/academics/faculty/justin-sabia-tanis/

Grab a copy

• Trans-Gender: Theology, Ministry, and Communities of Faith
• Injustice at Every Turn A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey

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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

3 (33s):
Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast Guest series. Today we are so excited to have the reverend Dr. Justin Ana, who is an assistant professor and director of the Social Transformation Program at United Theological Seminary. He earned his PhD from the Graduate Theological Union in interdisciplinary studies, in addition to a master of divinity degree at Harvard Divinity School and a doctor of ministry from San Francisco Theological Seminary. As a pastor, he served congregations in Boston, Honolulu, and San Francisco, and was a director of Leadership Development for Metropolitan Community Churches. He is now with the United Church of Christ.

3 (1m 13s):
In his prior work, he served as managing director at the center for L-G-B-T-Q and gender studies and religion, CLGS, and directed communications for the Hawaii Equal Rights Marriage Project, the National Center for Transgender Equality and out in equal workplace advocates. He has taught at the University of Arizona, Pima Community College, IFF School of Theology, and Pacific School of Religion. He now lives in Minnesota with his husband Henry and their two dogs. Well, Justin, thank you so much for, for being willing to have this conversation and, and do this podcast today. You are one of the, I think, very first like trans theology books I ever read.

3 (1m 55s):
So it’s super fun to to be in conversation and to introduce more people to you and your work. So thanks for being here.

4 (2m 2s):
It’s wonderful to be here. Great to have continue our conversation.

3 (2m 6s):
Yeah. I would love to just start by asking you a, to tell us a little bit of your story, a little bit of who you are and how you got to where you are now.

4 (2m 18s):
Sure. So I’m a, a transgender man, identify queer. I’m currently the director of the social transformation program and an assistant professor at United Theological Seminary of Between Cities, cities, which is exciting for me. So how I got here, or blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, this part. Alright, so how did I get here? I was raised, I was always raised in progressive faith, so I feel lucky that I’ve always brought to my religious practice the sense that justice is a part of being, being a Christian, I’ve never been afraid of hell or any of those things.

4 (3m 3s):
I’ve only known a faith that’s been affirming. So when I came out as queer in 1985, when I came out as trans in the mid to late nineties, I was never concerned about whether I was acceptable in God’s eyes, but rather I also recognized that there were so many people around me who were struggling with that question and also that there was a lack of, there was a lack of information about, about these questions that there was not theology that was written. So I will say that I, I have always been drawn to a radical vision of Jesus as someone who pushed the envelope and challenged us to live in ways that are more compassionate and more compelling, more inclusive to live God’s dominion among us.

4 (3m 59s):
And I would say that this was honed by discovering feminist theology when I was in college, and just the ways it challenged the, even though it had a progressive upbringing, the way it challenged the conventional religion religions to say there’s more to the story, there’s more inclusive, there’s always more love, there’s always more liberative possibilities that we’ve been exposed to before. So I, you know, I practically devoured, you know, writings my Carter Hayward and Katie Canon and, and other theologians from that roseberg and other theologians from that, that era, they, that really shaped my understanding, it’s not only can you come from a faith practice that’s affirming, but you can expand it.

4 (4m 49s):
So I became a, I became a pastor in 1990 in Metropolitan community churches and MC also very much honed by let’s have a liberative faith. Let’s, we don’t have to, we don’t have to agree with what people always told us things about. We could go back to the Bible, we could go back to our traditions and say, where, where’s God’s love in the middle of this? Or where is, where are the liberating possibilities? You know, I was involved in, in both AIDS ministry and yeah, involved in Act Up and some and other movements for queer liberation. I also, I like a lot of politics with my religion, a lot of religion with my politics as a pastor, and then later as an, as an advocate in Washington DC with the National Center for Trans Equality.

4 (5m 39s):
And they’re doing a lot of legislative work, policy work communications about why L-G-B-T-Q people in general and trans people specifically should have the same rights as everyone else, that we should have a society that addresses the gross inequities that brought about by oppressive systems, and particularly the ways in which those are com compounded by racism in our society. Yeah. And then as a result of actually working in the National Trans Discrimination Survey, doing the research there, I found, huh, that being able to be a researcher and have a, have a doctorate was actually really helpful in doing that work. So I went back to school to get a PhD and that’s how I found my way back into academia and working in a seminary now.

4 (6m 26s):
And I don’t know of any other trans people who are on the regular tenure track faculty at a Christian seminary in this country. So I feel really lucky to have to be, to be where I am in working with the incredible faculty and students that I’m working with.

3 (6m 44s):
That’s awesome. Yeah. You know, I, I think, I think so much of the work that we see happening now in trans theology, you know, stuff and, and stuff that I’m seeing kind of in the, in the popular imagination, like God creating outside of the binaries and genesis with marshes and dusk and all of that stuff, all of that really started with your work and your book. And I, I would love for you to talk a little bit about the book that you wrote and, and what inspired that book that it, it’s to my mind still like the best kind of intro to trans theology and, and, and understanding trans issues in the church.

3 (7m 24s):
So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about your book.

4 (7m 27s):
Sure. So I, this is my confession that I’m a super duper nerd, right? So I have a doctorate ministry degree in addition to a PhD because why not have the match set? So I wrote that book as part of my doctorate ministry dissertation at San Francisco Theological Seminary where they had, you know, and that now there are trans students who certainly have gone there years since, by the time I think they didn’t know quite what to do with me in this topic. And I do wanna do, wanna mention that I, that I feel like I built or that work owes its pre has predecessors in the, as I said, in the work of feminist theology, really helping me think about gender as a sec, as a category, but also to the writings of Victoria k Kowski, Vicki Kowski, and of Virginia Malco in gender.

4 (8m 19s):
So Vicki writing several chapters that really looked at e or looked through a trans lens. She was a, she was a theologian and a pastor before she became the first elected trans judge in California. But, so I just wanna acknowledge like that, the work part on that, but then also on what, what is not here. You know, I think I kind of naively thought when I, you know, you know, when I came out as queer, a lesbian in the, in 19 9, 19 85, when I was 1919, you know, suddenly there was a whole, there was, there was support groups to go to and there were pride events and there were community groups and there were books.

4 (9m 2s):
And I think in the nineties when I came out, I was sort of naively assuming that there would be something similar for trans people. And at that time there really was not, and the same was true of theology. So I thought, okay, well what is the book that I wished were here? And that’s what they set out to write. I’ll say, I think my, yeah, I think my two contributions to field one is really pushing this, like, it’s the, the more you push into it, the more you think the idea of Genesis one being about a binary is ludicrous because none of those things are binary. So in fact, like the really cool parts of creation are those liminal spaces. And I think that’s, I think that’s important.

4 (9m 47s):
In fact, I was thinking, I was recently, we were driving up on the north shore of Minnesota, long Lake Superior on vacation earlier, and the University of Minnesota has a department called, there’s a sign out front, like the bu that that building is houses the Department of Limnology. And I have no idea what that is. No. Like, you need to look it up. But I feel like that’s queer, trans and trans and non-binary theology’s, like limnology, that’s our, our space. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think, I think that that was an in insight that I really wanted to add into the discourse is really pushing that question of like, if this is true, then what does it say about all the, how do we read the whole rest of the Bible in, in light of God’s decision to create diversity in such like flamboyant, abundant ways, including things that are not easily categorized that the impulse to categorize as human, the impulse to mess up, you know, to blur all the things and, and live ology, whatever that is, that’s the divine piece.

4 (10m 52s):
And then the second thing I think, you know, the, the insight that was really helpful for me, I, I read an article about bio Anglican priest was a, who’s a trans woman in Carol Stone. And she talked about, she was only two things she was sure of in her life, her, her, her calling as a priest and her calling as a woman. And she never expounded on that. And she died of cancer I think shortly thereafter. But that really stuck with me. And then, you know, I think this idea that gender can be a calling sets us outside of the whole debate about, was I born this way? Was I not born? Like people could, people could be who they are, they can follow follow the path that’s correct for them, that’s insightful for them.

4 (11m 33s):
That’s life giving and meaningful for them. Just like you follow any other calling that it can have, not only can it have different permutations or ways it lives out, it must d resisting the, let’s put everybody in a box. This is the trans narrative. No, it’s like vocation we’re called to, called to be our authentic selves. And that looks as different as there are people.

3 (12m 6s):
Where do you see kind of trans theology moving, you know, since you wrote that book into now and, and even into the future?

4 (12m 14s):
I guess there are sort of three things that I see. One is I think people have dealt more, delved more deeply into the understanding of passages that may be used against trans people in the Bible. You know, and I really, I sort of did a starting start on that in the book. Other people have taken it much further, you know, the fact that the Bible is actually, it has mixed, it’s, I think it’s often portrayed that the Bible is anti-trans in the way that the Bible is anti-gay or something. And I think that it’s gender, the Bible’s really a complicated subject. So, you know, so I’ve seen people explore that in, in some deeper ways.

4 (12m 58s):
There’s also certainly research the US trans survey in 2015, for example, used questions about religion. So we’re getting some of the research and some, the writing I think gives us a broader spectrum of what does it mean to be trans, a trans person of faith? What are our religious paths look like? In what ways, you know, there’s just some beginnings of data from research as an area. I would love to see more what does trans religiosity or lived experiences actually look like. And then I think there’s also, you know, there’s certainly expansion of multiple faith perspectives. You know, I love the work that Chris Page has done with, you know, with trans of really, what, what does the interfaith trans movement look like and how do we learn from one another?

4 (13m 42s):
And then, yeah, I guess what what we, I think there’s also, I guess where I see some of the cutting edges is what does it mean to read, read stories in the Bible, or read or think about positions of faith that apply to everyone? What does it mean if we look through our particular lenses on, on them, you know, what is a trans reading of particular, particular passages and how does that help elevate the idea that this, this is a story for, for everyone who finds it meaningful as opposed to, you know, trans people are ungodly and over there and the rest of us get to have the Bible.

4 (14m 28s):
Like that’s not actually how Jesus taught about it, so not the message. So yeah, I guess those are, those are, you know, I, I think what I think what we’re seeing is that is the rich develop development of voices, the addition of other, other stories, you know, biographies of trans people of faith. You know, I I I see a, I see a broadening and deepening of those categories, and I think we’re just beginning to really then, you know, I’m waiting eagerly and I see this in some of my students, you know, what, is it true with someone who’s really lived a non-binary existence for, you know, for a couple decades gonna write about theology? What, what if you came out as non-binary where you’re in junior high, junior and you have lived that way?

4 (15m 13s):
Like, what are your theological insights that are really different than mine? As a, as a someone who transitioned, for example. And like, I’m really eager, I, I’ve seen a startings of that, but I’m really eager to have someone really do a theology from that perspective. I think that’ll be tremendously exciting.

3 (15m 27s):
Yeah. I, I think we’re, we’re, we’re still in a place where we so many of the people that are are, that are living non-binary and, and even trans lives that have transitioned as children, like we, they haven’t really come of age yet, or we’re just starting to see them come of age. Right. And I think that’s gonna be a totally different experience that’s, that’s gonna be really beautiful.

4 (15m 50s):
And they’re making great contributions too, already with like, their stories in media. So like what is it gonna be look like when that translates into theology? So yeah.

3 (16m 0s):
Do you have a, or a particular trans reading of a scripture passage that, that is exciting to you right now?

4 (16m 10s):
Yes. So I’m, I I’ve been working on the story of the Good Samaritan for a on eus that’s being edited by Katie Valentine and Joseph Marshall that we just, we just submitted them. So I’m, I’m really excited about that. But I look at the story of the Good Samaritan because we are so, well the first reading idea of it is that, is the Good Samaritan is a trans person because we are so used to looking the story of the Good Samaritan associated with the way word good with Samaritans, even in laws, right? You can be a good Samaritan in the law, but in fact, Jesus’ listeners hated Samaritans, right?

4 (16m 54s):
They thought they were blasphemous and unworthy and unfaithful. And there was these skirmishes that happened where people are destroying each other’s religious sites and so forth between choosing Samaritans. And Jesus had even tried to go to a Samaritan village a few past, a few chapter chapters of before, and he said his disciples to make a, prepare a place for him and the Samaritans refuse to do so. He can’t go there. And the disciples say like, give us the word well, rain fire and b brimstone down on this village for not accepting you. And Jesus says, not only does not have anything to do with that, like she says, like, wipe the dust for your feet, like move, move on. Like, let it go, let it go people.

4 (17m 35s):
But then, you know, in this, this story that happens very, he lifts up the Samaritan as the spiritual exemplar that everyone has to follow. Like these people that they were like, the disciples were like, let’s, let’s kill them all. And Jesus like, Hey, and not only that, but I’m gonna tell you about this Samaritan who did this amazing thing, and the person that you were supposed to follow, the one who shows mercy, is from this category that just rejected me, right? So it’s this whole turning of the world. So in that chapter, I argue, you know, for a reading for someone for whom trans people are viewed in some category as sinful or generically icky or whatever, ’cause the religious language of about us as tends to be vague and or the anti tends to be sort of vague and about more about discomfort of the person than about actual theology.

4 (18m 37s):
But like, if that’s the person, the person that you thought was unfaithful and gross and unworthy is the one who shows mercy, that’s where you look for mercy. But I also, I also wanna that I think about the story a second time there, what if the a trans person who is the one on the side of the road who’s been beaten by robbers, which is a much more likely scenario, of course, given the tremendous impact of violence and discrimination in our community, es especially for trans women of color, and the helper is someone flying a don’t tread on me flag with a red, white, and blue pickup truck.

4 (19m 20s):
You know? So, you know, listening to conspiracy radio, what does it mean to read this passage and try to get ourselves as close as we can to Jesus’s intent, which is to shock us into saying, we look not at categories of people, but at their merciful actions. And that’s where you find the dominion of God. That’s where you find the person you’re supposed to follow. You know, how do we use it to really shock ourselves in that way, you know, and that Jesus takes this, this risk actually telling the story like that would’ve really upset some of his listeners in order to make this larger spirit in, in order to guide us to, towards a spiritual insight where we’re able to love our enemies or we’re able to show deeper mercy to one another.

4 (20m 8s):
You know? So, so that’s, that’s the passage I’ve been wrestling most, most with. I’m thinking, how do we take something that’s so familiar to people and say, what does it look like if we’re, if we’re viewing these characters from trans perspectives? So

3 (20m 20s):
I love that. I, I think some, so much of our work at Queer Theology is, is helping people to re-encounter texts that have been so familiar as to have lost their edge or, or their shock value, like you said. I think for those of us who like really grew up steeped in scripture, it’s hard to re-encounter texts newly.

4 (20m 46s):
Yes. And, but I think think, I think that process that, that you’re describing is so important because it helps remind us that we’re heirs of this tradition. Like we get to have the best spiritual insights, spiritual growth that we can have, right? We get to, you know, in a cosmic sense, Christ is concerned that we also get that met. We get to learn from the story of the Good Samaritan too. And that by saying I’m not, I, I’m entitled both of the stories about gender and to the stories about anything else in the Bible or in my tradition, because I, because I I’m worthy of, of that attention is an important message for us, I think.

4 (21m 30s):
So I, I think that is a strength of what you all do.

3 (21m 34s):
Yeah. I, you know, I think what you just said is really vital that we, it it’s not just the passages about sexuality and gender that we can look at from a queer or trans perspective. It’s all of it. And that there, there is work to be done in, in all of these different places, and that’s really, really important.

4 (21m 54s):
Yeah.

3 (21m 56s):
What, what recommendation would you give to someone who maybe is like, brand new to trying to read scripture from their own identity? Maybe they’ve just come out or maybe they’ve, they’ve only been taught to read scripture one way. Do you have kind of a start here piece of advice?

4 (22m 17s):
Well, that’s a great question. I do think that there’s, I mean, the first thing is to truly recognize the location that you’re standing on. Like what is the identity from which you are reading this? And I mean that in a multitude of ways. I mean, not just, I mean both around sexual orientation, gender identity, but also around race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, right? Who am I and how am I looking at this text? And in what ways are, in what ways are those identities helping me see greater insights to the text? And in what ways are they, do they create a barrier that helps me see the text from seeing the text clearly?

4 (22m 58s):
You know, are there things that those have precondition me to not to come to the text, you know, but I, I, I guess the best advice I think that someone once gave to me that, that I give to other people in reading the Bible, which is particularly the New Testament, is to say, pick a book, particularly the gospels, particularly Matthew, mark, Luke, and read it through as a story from start to finish, rather than, I feel so many of us have been trained to like, pull out this little passage, and that’s our Bible study or whatever. And they’re actually stories and they come together differently when you read them as a story, you know, or you read the letters as letters, you read the acts as a sort of a, Hey, this is what we did.

4 (23m 41s):
And I think we’ve gotten unhelpfully away from, you know, the many, many cultures that continue to emphasize the importance of storytelling as a way to learn spiritually. And then you can go back and pull those pieces apart and read the lectionary and do all those things later. But, you know, think from where I’m sitting from, who I’m, what does, what does the story have to say to me, and let me just let it flow over me. And that’s where I would start.

3 (24m 9s):
Hmm. Love that. Whatcha seeing, you know, you’re working in, in a seminary in, in an urban area, what are you kind of seeing as, I, I don’t wanna say trends in theological education, that’s, that’s not quite what I’m getting at, but like, you know, as, as people are, are exploring theology and are maybe interested in working in the church, but maybe actually are interested in getting a seminary education and doing something completely different, you know, what are some of the things that you’re seeing from your students right now?

4 (24m 43s):
Our students are amazing. I just love them. So I say a couple of things. One is, you know, particularly being in the Twin Cities where George Floyd was murdered, and where, which is at least a catalyst for a new level of awakening in this country to facts that have always been there, of course. But this increasing awareness, and I think we’re beginning to recognize the, the absolute necessity, the moral necessity, the spiritual necessity of doing anti-racist education, of being an anti-racist people, by which, I mean, not that we’ve arrived, but that we’re struggling every moment against the systemic forces that exist in our society that continue, continue to, you know, overwhelm us with racist messages and fighting back against that.

4 (25m 33s):
But that’s a spiritual, and people I think are grasping that you can’t do theology unless you’re grappling with these issues. And I think that’s really important at this moment that, that, that awareness must not be a fleeting thing, but embedded in theological education, I also definitely see what the trend you’re talking about in terms of people may be going into religious vocations, but they’re also very much going into nonprofit work, activist work, chaplaincy work, you know, other things. And then the, the lines of traditional ministry are blurring. But I think, you know, I, I see we see more and more of our students who are there because they recognize the need for change in the world, and they wanna do it grounded deeply in their values.

4 (26m 20s):
You know, these, these upcoming generations, I think take laudably take very seriously the question of a meaningful life. You know, I grew up in the 1980s, that was not a great time for like, you know, money is not meaning, right? I sort of felt swimming up streamers. Now you can talk with, you know, you could have a conversation about what does it mean to devote yourself to that which you you value most, which has, will leave the place better than you left it. You know? And we certainly have a, I mean, one of the things we, we pride ourselves on and or, you know, strive for, but also our students value is I guess a lot of places. And it’s very easy to do injustice education here.

4 (27m 1s):
Here’s how you can spot systemic racism in housing. Here’s how you can identify a sexist statement. It’s very different to talk instead about, like, it’s not enough that that’s like, that’s step, that’s the pre-step. The, the, the real work begins when you say, how am I an effective change agent in line with my values in, in ways that nudge justice a little further down the road? And how do I get a bunch of companions to come help me do that thing? So I, you know, I would say as someone who’s studied leadership and movements for quite a while, this, this idea of collective and communal leadership strategies where, where you get a bunch of companions and you work together to change some things that’s being birthed right now, I think is, you know, I mean, and has been for a while, but again, it’s just, I see a sort of more of an elevation of, of, of, that I think is really exciting.

4 (28m 2s):
I think we’re getting away from ego-driven leadership, or we, or we’re recognizing that ego-driven leadership is ineffective, and if we wanna change the world, we have to have to do a community based piece. So, you know, I think in the progressive seminar, people are taking that, that seriously. And, and I think we’re still learning how to integrate into theological education questions of sex and gender, sexuality and gender identity. And even, I was talking with a friend when I went to seminary, I graduated in 1990, I was sure that the question of inclusive language would’ve been, like, settled a really long time ago, and it’s still not right.

4 (28m 44s):
Yeah. Churches are still having like conniption fits about, you know, calling Godmother or using non-binary lang know calling God they, despite, you know, the centuries of money of discussion about the Trinity. So even though it’s more biblically accurate, so, you know, I think there’s, we have a lot of theological work to do there as well. And theological schools I think need to, need to focus some on how do we help congregations move along with those pieces. But

3 (29m 23s):
Yeah, there, there does, I mean, this is from my own seminary experience too, of, of a bit of a disconnect between, between I guess what I learned and how then I was taught to, in, in have that conversation or not taught frankly, to have that conversation with congregations. And I think that that’s still, I, I hope that that is a gap that is getting closed, but it, it feels really vital.

4 (29m 50s):
Yeah, I was, I’m really excited because I’m teaching queer and trans theologies this fall, and I’ve been working with the Open affirming coalition, the ucc and, and about ways that with QB Floyd in particular, about how we can make that class count for students to be facilitators of those congregation conversations in their congregations, right? So like, how do we not make this just a, and I’m great grateful to them for this, for, for raising this with me so that we, that we’re really being very intentional about closing that gap. So I think it’s part of, it’s in seminary education, making sure that we’re training people to lead being effective leaders.

4 (30m 32s):
But we’ve also been involved in some research at United, what are the felt needs of clergy between what they’re being confronted with, both with in terms of racial justice, also ec ecological necessity right now, climate change and extreme weather, like these were things that I certainly wasn’t prepared for to deal with in seminary or was in theoretical way. So what are the gaps that clergy are experiencing right now? And what is the responsibility or the possibility of the seminary help helping people make meet, update their skills, update their theology or, or re you know, reconceive it in ways that are, that are useful and effective to them, their congregations, their communities.

4 (31m 22s):
And so,

3 (31m 23s):
Yeah, I would love to know from your experiences that this is a bit of a change in direction in our conversation, but, you know, as someone who, who came out and transitioned in the nineties, you know, where, where have you seen the movement, the trans and non-binary community? Where are the shifts you’re seeing? What is really exciting you about what you’re seeing now? Maybe what concerns you too?

4 (31m 49s):
I, I love the, I love the ever expansiveness of people’s identity and the ways to claim that identity. And, you know, I was on the tail, tail end of the arrow in which you had to, you were expected to be straight after you transitioned. You were expected to be, you know, never tell anyone ever again. Like all of those kind of things. Fortunately, I had a wonderful and queer therapist and you know, I, I never got that, but my peers did from the, you know, that you had to, you know, I remember people, you know, you go to support group and people would share like this, these are the lines you have to say to your therapist, you know, I’m gonna kill myself.

4 (32m 34s):
I’m a man trapped in a woman’s body, whatever. Like, you know, like specific lines you had to say. So you would meet those expectations. So like, the fact that we’ve let that go, like, or, or mostly moved past that, not entirely. The other trend that is so, oh my gosh, that just brings so much joy to me, is running into children, young children whose parents believe them when they say that they’re trans, when they understand the themselves differently than their body appears when their parents love them and support them and make sure they’re in schools that are, that are safeguarding their kids’ rights and taking them to pediatricians who, you know, who offer the family options.

4 (33m 16s):
Like the fact that, like, it would never, never have occurred to me to tell my parents when I was wrestling this, I mean, it was not even a, a thing. And my parents were progressives like, you know, my dad in particular dealt very well with my coming out, but coming, I never me when I was a child. So that, and see the, which parents are protecting their children or c keep my from being transgender, I my child’s life in danger because loving my child comes first. So that’s, that’s an amazing thing.

4 (33m 56s):
And I would also say that we’re like the growing recognition that, or the, the growing level of, of the diver, the diversity of within the movement, the fact that that trend trans organizations are paying attention to their leadership, that they’re recognizing that that people of color have had extensive trans organizations all along, are helping ways to, to, to, you know, that we’re struggling with ways to address racism within our organizations. That we’re, we’re recognizing that the, you know, when we safeguard the rights of those in our community who are most vulnerable, then we all are in a much safer place.

4 (34m 40s):
You know, I think these are things we have to continue to stretch ourselves on to say, if we believe in, if we believe in liberation, if we’re doing this for the wellbeing of trans people, then, you know, racism and poverty and all of those issues have gotta be on our leading, our agenda ending violence, you know, because the, the rates of violence and discrimination against white trans people is astronomical, and then it’s compounded so much racism. So yeah. So just I think paying attention to that. So I think there’s this simultaneously, like we have to record with ourselves. We have to think of what is a, just an accurate representation of trans people in our rights looks like.

4 (35m 21s):
But also, you know, the fact that like most of the kids in our church youth group talk about knowing someone in their high school who’s trans, like as if this is like a duh thing, you know, or non-binary. Like, it’s just, it’s such a different world than I ever imagined. So

3 (35m 40s):
Yeah, I, I think that, you know, the statistics were even just a couple years ago that what 70% of of people in the United States didn’t know, right? Anyone who is trans. And I, I just think if we do that report again in even three years, that number’s gonna be

4 (35m 59s):
Very different,

3 (35m 59s):
Drastically smaller. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to ask like, what, what are you working on right now? What’s, what is occupying your time? What are you excited about?

4 (36m 9s):
I just finished a rewrite of the chapter I did on Philippians and the Queer Bible Commentary, and I’m, and the article on Transform antics on the, about the Good Samaritan. I’m also working on my PhD dissertation was about queer artists who’ve been doing, using spirituality in their work for decades. And I profiled four of them. But I’m really interested in this question of how queer artists depict religiosity or spirituality that’s outside of religious institutions and the ways in which we can use queer and trans culture as a lens to understand spirituality in a different way.

4 (36m 53s):
And particularly like, well, both how we can document what that is in as a good in and of itself. This is a spiritual expression of what it means to live differently, to love differently, to be who we are, but also what can release institutions learn, learn from people who reject the hypocrisy of the church or the, the rejection of the church, but maintain rich spiritual, spiritual lives. And so I’m working on getting that towards, towards publication. And while I ended up using gay and lesbian artists, so much of their work, actually d deals with the, with the liminality of gender and the ways in which gender is differently expressed as well.

4 (37m 43s):
So it’s, it’s, I understand why we te when we’re doing like trans, why we tell people the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. But this is another category where, in which actual human beings living this, I’m like, muddied up the water, like own other people. Yeah. So I’m really excited about that in the ways in which there’s a, there’s kind of resilience and profundity and faithfulness that you see in, in, in queer art about faith that, that I, I wanna lift up and celebrate and, and think of, think of the artists as, as a field, as a particular kind of theological tool.

3 (38m 24s):
Who are some of the artists that you looked up?

4 (38m 26s):
So there’s a gay artist in Mexico City named, who has this fascinating story I wrote about it in, in a book called Unlocking Orthodoxies. But he was a young gay child in rural Mexico and envisioned the Virgin Mary as his mother, and Jesus as his father, as a, like an alternative loving family to the complexities of living as a, as a gay boy. And so, so he always had this family to turn to, and he has this particular devotion to the Virgin Arian is one of his paintings called Bene Blessings, in which he and his, his lifelong partner are standing with their arms around each other.

4 (39m 8s):
And the Virgin Mayor, Virgin Guadalupe on her Thema Tillman on their traditional image is standing above them reigning the, the flower. The roses are just raining down over that blessing man. You know, so what does that say about like, the blessings of the virgin on, on their love, you know? So that was one of the artists, Alma Lopez from Los Angeles, who did this amazing series on queers, queer saints, among other things, using butch women, gender diverse women, to look to explore saints who are sort of fell outside the gender binary, like St. Wil Fortis and some of these like weird stories of gender transformation in, in, in the Saints.

4 (39m 53s):
And Elizabeth Olson Wallen, who’s a Swedish photographer. So I look at a series that she did in Jerusalem in which people were deli pictured, deliberately defying the, some of the things in the Bible, like, man shall not lie with a man with showing to men out in public under the walls of Jerusalem. You know, they do these sort of gorilla actions, which people would run in and take the picture, and then they disband. And then the last one is down How, who’s an artist in New Mexico who did a series about the Greco Roman pantheon using gay cowboys, exploring this sort of role of like this myth, the mythos and the figures.

4 (40m 39s):
He also did the stations of the cross that took place of the New York peers in the 1970s, kind of as a metaphor of it’s out of time, but as a metaphor for the AIDS epidemic as well. But there’s a number of o other artists that I looked at along that I studied and wrote about in the process along the way, all of who had sort of for that project, I, I simply focus on people who’ve been involved for a long time, who have, they have a long canon of stuff and people have written about them, which is what you need for your PhD. Yes, there’s a lot of other artists, like we’re having an exhibit with Daniel ar the Venezuelan artist who does a lot of, to this campaign called Noso.

4 (41m 23s):
I’m Not a Joke, which does these beautiful brightly colored, affirming images of LGBTQ people, same sex, love transgender people as this way of positive affirmation. So we’re gonna have him, his work exhibit at United in the Fall. And I’m really excited about, I’m excited about being in seminary where we have these great gender queer and queer images of, of, you know, men with beards made of flowers and all, you know, all these kind Yeah. Self affirming images up on our walls. It’d be a great way to, to teach. So

3 (42m 1s):
Yeah. One of the things that I just, I love about the work that United does is their emphasis on the arts and the, and the, and the kind of conversation between theology and arts. Can you speak a little bit about how you see, how, how you see art and theology going together, and also how those two things either together or separately can really work to bring about change in the world?

4 (42m 29s):
Absolutely. I think art offers us imaginative possibilities to see things that don’t yet exist. And I think to be able to show, in particularly in the work I’ve done with queer art, art, but it’s true in other ways as well, to show queer and trans people as holy, for example, as saints, as worthy of sacred art, sense of a radical theological message that you’re used to being, seeing people who you know, who look like it everyone else or who were not included in this.

4 (43m 12s):
You know, David Vo the artist, you know, did this great image of Jeana as a saint. So just, this is a long trend, but he was trying to uplift to someone who’d been a sex worker like himself as, as a holy figure. So I think this is this really great way of like sacrificing people, but also envisioning a world in which those people are saints or those people are, are holy and sacred worth, you know? So it can envision a different world. And I think the arts also have this really important function of making that which is invisible and ineffable. Something that tangible that we can see, right? So if you draw a picture of God, you’re drawing something that you cannot see and cannot touch into an object that’s actually in three dimensions made of Atos that’s solid, you know, that you can put your hands on.

4 (44m 2s):
And I, I think in that way, I think this is where, you know, the, the Orthodox tradition of icons is sort of this portal between the holy and the, and I think that’s true of, of probably, of all art and particularly sacred art, but it creates this way of, of making that which we cannot see into something tangible and real that we connect with. And that’s really powerful. But yeah, I love the, the program that my colleague Jennifer O. Freeman has, has done there, and Cindy Johnson who has been there before. And, you know, they’ve always emphasized this, you know, the art should be something that, that changes, that changes us, changes the social landscape, changes us as, as spiritual people, that, that introduces ideas into our collective moral imagination.

3 (44m 54s):
If someone wanted to find your work or find you on the interwebs, where, where could they look?

4 (45m 1s):
They could look at United seminary edu on the faculty page, and there I am. That be one place.

3 (45m 9s):
Great. And we’ll put, we’ll put a link to your, your book in the show notes as well. That’d be

4 (45m 14s):
Great

3 (45m 18s):
With everyone, we are doing a rapid four, four questions rapid round so you can answer with one word, with a sentence, whatever comes to you. But the first one is, what’s your favorite thing about your identity? And you can define identity in a multiplicity of ways.

4 (45m 36s):
I appreciate about my identity as a trans man that I was raised with a socially student of a girl, which helps me become a gentle man. The kind of man that, that, that I wanna be. So I’m grateful for that.

3 (45m 50s):
If you could tell young people one thing, what would it be?

4 (45m 54s):
To craft their life with abandoned and care. And you’ll not regret the things that you, the adventures that you choose to go on life is an adventure.

3 (46m 8s):
What is your favorite portrayal of trans men in the media? This could be a book, a movie,

4 (46m 14s):
You know, what comes to mind first is just the lived community of, of people. So probably study art. I’m much better with like, the real flesh of blood people. I, I would say the, yeah,

3 (46m 26s):
Love that. And then finally, what’s something that’s bringing you joy? Lately,

4 (46m 31s):
We moved two years ago to Minnesota, and I treasure all the time that the opportunities to be outside here. So the incredible trees is incredible land here. And at this exact moment, my garden, which is bursting with zucchini and tomatoes and carrots and all the things.

3 (46m 48s):
Love it. Well, thank you so, so much for, for doing this and for being in conversation today. It was really lovely.

5 (46m 56s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To

2 (47m 5s):
Dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

5 (47m 13s):
We’ll see you next week.

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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome back to the Ology podcast. This week we are gonna do a deep dive into the gospel of Mark, and I am so excited. This is

1 (40s):
Me too.

2 (41s):
This is where I get to be like super nerdy and this is my favorite stuff in the world. And so, yeah, so I’m excited to dive in. I, I feel like we’ve talked about this a lot, but I know that for me, I was not raised with looking at the historical context at all of the Bible where even reading the gospels right, we like try to jam all four of them.

1 (1m 7s):
Yep. Yeah. Together

2 (1m 8s):
Into one coherent narrative. And so we are not gonna do that on this, this podcast. We’re really gonna dig, take a deep dive into looking at just what does Mark say and why does Mark say it and all of those things. And I’m, I’m super excited. Brian, why are you excited to talk about the gospel of Mark? I

1 (1m 28s):
Mean, for a lot of those same reasons, I think before I, so I studied film production in college, but I also studied religion in college. And when I added religion as a second area of focus, my parents were like, when we said double major or minor, we meant like math or business, not another, not useless, but not another soft area of study. So I am, I stu, this is like my jam. I studied religion in undergrad. One of my classes that I took was actually just the entire name of the class was called Jesus. So I kept saying I have to go to Jesus class. And I think my friends all semester long thought that I was like, it was actually like religion 4 0 3, like the world of the New Testament or something like that.

1 (2m 11s):
And they were, and it was like, no, it was like religion 4 0 3 colon, Jesus. So I’m really excited to sort of like be nerdy about that. I also, like you, I think before, before studying this had a similar approach of the gospels of like, they all tell different parts of the same story and we can sort of like smush them all together to get a coherent picture. And you know, even just sort of like a, an activity pageant at church has the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke smush together and there’s no births and they’re totally, totally different, but they get smushed together in our popular imagination and there’s no birth story in in Mark, which we’ll get to.

1 (2m 54s):
But, so I’m excited about that just from like a nerdy sort of like I get to dive into this world of academia that I I that I find it fascinating and hopefully make it interesting for y’all. But I think also on a personal level that this sort of work of seeing the gospels for what they were and what they were intended to be and the ways in which they are different and the sources that they draw upon and that then like the ways in which they go on to influence other sources and our theology and our lives, it was sort of like a process of like demystifying my faith and what I believes in about the Bible.

1 (3m 38s):
And I think like through the process of demystifying it, then I emerged on the other side of that with a much more like I was able to like re-size it and like demystify and then like make it sacred again that this, we don’t want to just stop at facts about Jesus or about the gospel of Mark, but like, I think like the question that sort of underlies all of this is like, and then so what, like what does this say about our lives, our world, our communities, our faith, our spiritual practices?

1 (4m 20s):
And like when I’m able to see the gospel of Mark more clearly, I can like more fully enter the world of both Jesus and Mark and then bring Jesus un mark and that message along with me to the current millennia and it becomes like a divine voice still speaking. And so I think that we’re hoping to merge the head of this with like the heart of faith. And so that’s why I’m excited about this.

2 (4m 51s):
Yeah. So this week we’re gonna look all around the background information, talk a lot about some of the political and historical context, some of the unique features of Mark, of which there are a lot, and also dive into some of the major themes. And then over the next several weeks we’re gonna pull out some of those themes by looking at specific stories in the gospel mark. And so I wanna start by saying that it’s really important that we look at things like the background information, like when it was written, to whom was it written, because that really impacts how we read and understand these texts.

2 (5m 35s):
And I also wanna just name that we are indebted to other scholars that have done this work. We’re relying a lot on Che Meyer’s book Binding the Strong Man. If you want a deep and nerdy dive all into the gospel of Mark, that’s a great book. We’re also using the new interpreter’s commentary for other background information. And so we’re really drawing on that. We’re not just like making shit up, right? This is drawing on a lot of scholarly research to look at these different things. And as we talk about and read the gospel of Mark, I we’re also focusing just on Mark. And the reason that that’s important is that this author, whoever wrote Mark, is telling a really particular story in a particular way to particular people.

2 (6m 24s):
And so when we bring in things that we know from the other gospels or we try to, you know, mash them all together, we’re actually doing ourselves and the text to disservice, like this was meant to be read on its own as a very particular thing. And so that is how we’re gonna do it.

1 (6m 42s):
And also at the time that Mark was written, there weren’t yet other gospels. Like Mark was definitely the first gospel written. And so like the, the, the original audience so would not have been able to even bring in ideas from the other gospels because like they had not yet been created,

2 (6m 57s):
Though they may have had other oral traditions. Sure, sure. And so Mark is definitely like choosing from the oral tradition specific stories to tell a particular narrative. And the other thing that we need to remember as we look into all of this is that there are two times operating at the same time, right? There’s the time about which the author of Mark is writing. So Mark is writing about Jesus in a specific time, but there’s also the time in which the author of Mark is living. And those are two very different times. And as we’ll see, mark is bringing in things from his time and telling stories about Jesus in his time to like make meaning today, which is what we’re gonna do as well.

2 (7m 49s):
But it’s important to, to be able to separate those things out and to realize that when Mark quote unquote makes mistakes that often he’s making them intentionally. So, alright, let us dive in to some of this background. So Brian, you already said Mark is the first gospel. Can you talk a little bit more about that and when Mark was written?

1 (8m 14s):
Sure. So I I I, before we started recording this episode, I was like, I’m pretty sure it was written like around 70, around 70, like post Jesus common era. And then I confirmed that that is the one when most scholars believe that that was to be written. So that I, I written in Greek probably maybe with some quotes in other languages and I think I now I would have to like brush up on this, but I think like some folks think that Mark was writing more to a Roman or a Gentile audience and like making that case or at least sort of like writing in the context of Roman occupation of Jerusalem and the conflict that was brewing there.

2 (9m 9s):
Yeah. So Chen Meyers thinks that Mark has written prior to 70 during the revolt. So after 66 prior to 70, that’s the window that he’s, that he’s working in. I think other scholars have, some have said slightly past 70, right? All of, yeah,

1 (9m 30s):
Yeah.

2 (9m 30s):
All of those things we don’t know entirely. Yeah. And

1 (9m 33s):
So let’s just for for a second like to, for folks who don’t know, like what happened in 66 and then in 70 that like in 66 common era there was sort of like a Jewish insurrection in Jerusalem to reclaim the holy land as you know, like the gospels are set in in time when Jerusalem is like still under Roman oc occupation. How to relate to the Roman occupiers is a big theme definitely in Mark and in other gospels as well and in other writings of the Christian New Testament. And so seized re seized Jerusalem in 66, held it for a while and then in 70 common era the Raman army was able to quash that rebellion, completely destroy the temple with everything except for the western wall, which is sometimes called the whaling wall, which is now a sacred site in Jerusalem.

1 (10m 21s):
That’s all that remains of the second temple and expel the kill and expel a large portion of the Jewish folks from Jerusalem and even Israel larger than that. And sort of a return to exile.

2 (10m 39s):
Yeah. So this idea of Roman occupation, this idea of the temple state and, and the political economy of that time and the ways in which some of the temple was in collusion with Rome. Mark critiques a lot of that. So this is all like really important background to understanding how to read Mark and what Mark was trying to say. And I just wanna name that like we’re talking about Mark as the author of Mark, but like the reality is that we dunno who wrote Mark, it was probably not one of the disciple mark’s.

2 (11m 21s):
Mark was a super common name. Lots of lots of biblical texts are written and named after people, but we know that those people didn’t write those. And so as we talk about Mark, we are not talking about a specific mark, we’re talking about whoever the author was of this gospel that has been named after Mark. But Che Meyers and other scholars think that Mark wrote this text in or near Northern Palestine, that it was written to a mostly gentile audience because some of the things that Mark describes, he just gets wrong and he was Jewish or from the Jewish community that he wouldn’t have gotten them wrong.

2 (12m 6s):
So that’s just important to note. I wanna read this from binding the Strong Man because I think it’s, this is actually really fascinating and also really important. He says Mark is written in Greek, but a notoriously poor Greek peppered with Latin and Semitic syntactic in idiomatic intrusions indicating that Greek was Mark’s second language. And assuming that Mark writes from Palestine, this is not surprising, but the things that are sprinkled in the Latin sources that are are sprinkled in the gospel are all military, judicial or economic terms, which is really fascinating to me.

2 (12m 46s):
And he’s pulling them in because this was a, a people and a population that’s under Roman colonial administration. And so all of these different terms that have become a part of their language have come because of occupiers, right. Of occupiers that have taken over this land. And so when he’s using those terms too, he’s making really specific political and military digs, which I think is fascinating and we’re gonna, we’re gonna really dive deep into that next week, but just know that that is kind of happening and, and pay attention to that in the background.

2 (13m 32s):
Alright. We’ve talked a little bit about some of the political and historical background around the temple. What else, Brian, do you know or wanna bring out about this, the period in which Mark was writing? So again, not the period in which Jesus is living, but the period in which Mark is writing about when Jesus was living.

1 (13m 54s):
Sure. So one of the things that I want to bring out is I think a actually in this case applies to both the period that Jesus was living and the period when Mark was writing that, like around the first century was a time of like a lot of, like, there was a bunch of different Jewish sex that were all sort of like wrestling together with like, what does it mean to be a Jewish people in general? And in particular, what does it mean to be Jewish in oc like under Roman occupation, there had been folks who had claimed to be the Messiah in the past that had like attempted to lead revolts, things like that.

1 (14m 37s):
Also that there were sort of like three main groups at around that time. The Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Enes that like folks might have heard of. And I think it’s like, I just like wanna underscore that like we, sometimes we Christians sometimes use like pharisees like in a sort of a derogatory sense. And I think it’s like really important to name that like modern rabbinic Judaism is like descended from the Pharisees. And so it’s not like this, they’re not these like evil people from the past. It’s like a rich and vibrant and justice oriented culture that continues to today. I was saw like a rabbi who was saying, who was proposing that perhaps Jesus himself might have been a Pharisee and it was like an inter, a lot of his like digs against the Pharisee were not, were like coming from place of like in intra community arguments about like, what does Jewish identity mean?

1 (15m 33s):
And so I think like that sort of like background of this time of like, what do we do? Like how does a temple fit in like the ways in which Rome had been occupying, not just Jerusalem, but also sort of like influencing temple life, temple practices, things that were displayed at the temple, I think was a big source of conflict. And the sort of like how do we respond to Rome like assimilation, armed resistance, nonviolent resistance, like all of that is sort of like swirling around, especially in the context of if we take sort of Che Meyer’s dating of like post the start of the revolt, pre destruction of the temple, like we’re like in the middle of it.

1 (16m 20s):
And these theological claims that folks are making also have deeply like political consequences also have like are can be like life or death. Like are we going to get slaughtered? How do we survive? How do we survive this occupation? How do we survive into the future? And being such a small minority that has dealt with, you know, exile and occupation in the past this was sort of like, you know, I swear, but other times we both in the past in the, in the present, like the future of all the Jewish people kind of like potentially hangs in the balance here.

2 (16m 57s):
Yeah. And, and that there’s also, you know, there’s not a separation of the political and yeah. The spiritual that, that you cannot read any of these actions that these various Jewish groups are taking as separate from religious religiously motivated action, but also like the political and the religious is so intertwined that we can’t separate them out. So as we’re reading, you know, and we’re talking about political meanings, it, I I think some folks are like, well, you just, you’re always turning the gospel into a political text and it’s like, yeah. Because it’s like these things are so intertwined and, and it’s important that we not separate them out.

2 (17m 43s):
I think too, to your point Brian, that th this is, this had been an ongoing process of small groups taking sometimes symbolic action, sometimes political action, sometimes violent action as a way to kind of fight back against their oppressors. And that we are gonna see more of that in, in mark. And that mark is actually also encouraging people to, to do more of that. And that many of the things that he attributes to Jesus, many of the actions that he attributes to Jesus are in line with these symbolic actions that other groups have been taking.

2 (18m 24s):
So Jesus is coming out of a line of people that were already doing this work. It’s not like, it’s not like nothing was happening and then Jesus came and st things started to happen. Like he is part of a system and a and a and a people that are already fighting back. And so, so some of the question is how shall we fight back in line of what Jesus is teaching? One of the stories that Myers tells in his book, which I think is really, really fascinating, is that there was a group that, that fought back that they engaged in this action and the first thing that they did was burned the public archives where the records of debt were capped.

2 (19m 9s):
And it’s

1 (19m 9s):
Like, oh, I love that.

2 (19m 10s):
Right? Like this, this is a, a fight back in a, in a spiritual sense, but it’s also very much a protest against economic oppression. And, and like those, those things are all intertwined and I think that that’s, that’s really beautiful and we’re gonna find a bit more resonance as we, as we dig even deeper into this.

1 (19m 32s):
And that was like, like a Jewish resistance action, not a specifically like Jesus followers.

2 (19m 40s):
Correct. Yeah.

1 (19m 41s):
Because at this point Christianity doesn’t ask, doesn’t exist and that like, I mean at around 70, like into like the hundreds, like continuing on into like is like, this is when Christianity is beginning to start to pull away, but at, at this point it’s still very much not a separate thing yet.

2 (19m 59s):
Yeah, yeah. And that all of these things, like so much of, of the conflict that’s happening religiously is also a conflict about class, right? It’s about violence. Yeah. It’s about oppression, right? You can’t, you can’t separate those things out. So let’s talk a little bit about Mark. There are some really unique things about Mark, especially in line with the other gospels. You mentioned earlier, Brian, that there the, there’s no birth narrative. What do we do with that?

1 (20m 35s):
Yeah, I, so I think like the first thing is that like, it, it just wasn’t important to Mark. We do see in, so some of the, right, some of the letters in the New Testament from Paul, et cetera, likely date to around this time perhaps before it. And they, there are some references to sort of like the, you know, either like virgin things like that. But we don’t have, you know, the robust, the robust birth narratives are really in Matthew and Luke. I likely come from an oral tradition that had been circulating before they were written down there, but at least for Mark, he’s not concerned about about Jesus’ birth and kind of just like jumps right into the action of it all.

1 (21m 21s):
And I think like that’s really interesting, especially as the first gospel to be written that for the first one it really wasn’t that important.

2 (21m 31s):
Yeah. And, and like you said, he jumps right into the action. That’s kind of one of the characteristics of Mark, that it’s, it’s really rather spartan. There’s not a lot of detail. He, it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of like, Jesus did this and then he did this and then he did this. And so because of this, when Mark chooses to tell a similar story twice, which he does in, in a couple of different places, we need to really pay attention to those stories to pay attention to the differences between them and why Mark would have chosen to tell them a, a similar story in two different times. Mark also uses a really interesting literary device often where he starts telling a story, he interrupts that story with another story, and then he returns to the original story.

2 (22m 18s):
He does this all over the gospel. And so that’s something to pay attention to, to, as you’re reading. Also, I, I think it’s really important to note that when Mark calls his text a gospel, he’s actually starting a new literary form. That that form in antiquity didn’t exist before. Mark wrote it down that a gospel was a verbal proclamation, often a political proclamation. And so for Mark to do a written story and to call it a gospel, he starting something entirely new, which I think is really fascinating and beautiful.

2 (23m 2s):
And it’s something that we miss, right? Because we, we have four gospels, we know a lot about the gospels, we talk about it all the time. But to know that he’s actually starting something new is really cool. And

1 (23m 13s):
I think it’s important to like dis to distinguish like gospel from history, right? Because like history written, history existed and even like written history is part of the Hebrew scriptures. Like parts of like, this is history, this is like myth maybe. And that the gospel is something else other than a strict history. It’s, you know, a religio political propaganda in some way. That it’s, it’s, it’s making a case for something not simply recording it. It’s not a history book.

2 (23m 44s):
Yes. And that the other thing that’s really unique about Mark is that Mark’s story is for and about common people, which was also different in a lot of texts that we find in Kodi that were written about, you know, the upper class, the ruling class royalty. Here we have a text that is very much centered on fishermen and people who are poor and that that’s also a unique thing. And so that’s, that’s something to pay attention to with Mark

1 (24m 18s):
Too. And that’s also kind of in, its in a way like making a statement, right? That like these people and these stories like deserve to be written down in the same way that we write about emperors and generals. And that like, it’s kinda like pointing a finger and saying like, this, this here this is, this matters. Yes.

2 (24m 38s):
Yeah. So there are a lot of major themes in Mark, but many of them kind of circle around each other. Mark talks a lot about discipleship, which we’re gonna talk more about next week. He talks a lot about debt and literal economic debt and purity, which is interesting. We’re gonna talk more about purity in week three. He also talks about repentance. And I, I think it’s important, you know, often when we hear about repentance, especially for those of us who grew up in evangelical or more conservative cultures, we think of repentance as a spiritual thing.

2 (25m 23s):
I mean, how were you taught about repentance, Brian?

1 (25m 26s):
Yeah, I remember like there’s this, this sort of like visual representation of like turning away, right? That like, it, like it definitely, I think for me there was some element of like a change of action follows a change of heart that like, ’cause it was like, part of it was trying to get around this whole, which we talked about with our salvation stuff. Like what is salvation? And if you say this prayer and you accept Jesus, like, can you be unsaved? But then like if your actions are bad, maybe you never were really a Christian. And so like for me there was some element of like your actions should reflect your repentance to sort of like prove that you like really mean it.

1 (26m 12s):
But it was definitely like, but like the actual sort of like theologically significant event was sort of like the reorientation of your heart. And then from that, the like appropriate actions will follow. And also for me, the appropriate actions that follow in that process definitely didn’t have anything to do with debt. Like, like economic debt or Roman occupation or violence. It was like sexual purity and just like that, like the word discipleship was a word that I, that I heard a lot growing up and in, in that church world, but it was like really vaguely defined like what discipleship meant.

1 (26m 57s):
And it was like, you know, because I remember like, leave your nets behind, you have to actually like take action and like do stuff in the world. But it was like, I think the actions that we were supposed to be taking was like reading your bible daily and like praying and like being a witness in your secular workplace in some way so that people would be like, oh, he’s so professional and so nice and kind and really honors his word and doesn’t gossip. So like look how godly he is. Like maybe I want a taste of that. Jesus. Also, it wasn’t ever to sort of like change material conditions of, of the world. It was like this sort of like personal piety that then you sort of like project it onto the world to then attract people to their own sort of personal piety.

2 (27m 44s):
Yeah. It’s, it’s very much like me and Jesus, right? It’s, it’s me and God. It’s, it’s an individual process of conversion. It’s not a political or communal process of of conversion. Yeah. Which is very different than what Mark is talking about when Mark is talking about repentance, mark’s talking about turning away from empire, which is a very different, a different thing

1 (28m 9s):
For a lot of conservative Christianity. Repentance is turning towards empire it seems like. Yeah.

2 (28m 13s):
Right. And, and along with this, this theme of repentance is Mark’s theme of resistance, which is about, you know, both, both churning away from empire but then also being actively resisting of it and to Meyer says to find meaningful ways to impede imperial progress, right? Yes. In which is, which is awesome and we’re gonna talk more about that. Mark is also talking a lot about liberation from specific structures of oppression and, and he’s also talking about the ways that when you are under those structures of oppression that it embeds into your spirituality and your personality.

2 (29m 6s):
And so like when we’re talking about getting freed spiritually, it’s also about getting freed politically. Like for Mark, these two things are together. Yeah. Which I think is you

1 (29m 20s):
Can’t have one one or the other in many ways.

2 (29m 22s):
Exactly. Yeah. So Meyer says thus the per the purpose of the author of Mark was not to merely present certain ideas about Jesus or to warn his readers against some group distinct from themselves and this is what’s key, but to lead his readers through a particular story in which they discover themselves and thereby change. And like That right there is huge and we’re gonna keep coming back to that. The other, just a couple more kind of main themes of Mark that, that his gospel is structured around three kinds of symbolic action.

2 (30m 3s):
There are lots of journeys across the sea of Galilee representing the imperative to overcome the social structures of segregation between Jew and Gentile. So that’s one, there are lots and lots of healings of social outcasts, which were representative of the imperative to overcome the social structures of class division. And there are multiple feedings of poor masses in the wilderness representing a practice of economic sharing. So as you read the gospel of Mark, pay attention to journeys across the Sea of Galilee, healings of social outcasts and feedings of poor people. Those are things that we’re gonna talk about a lot.

1 (30m 43s):
Yes.

2 (30m 44s):
And one more thing from Myers. He says these three narrative strands also represent the key aspects in Jesus’s Messianic program confronting the old order, constructing an alternative order, and bringing liberation to the poor.

1 (31m 0s):
Hmm. Oof. Yeah,

2 (31m 2s):
Good stuff.

1 (31m 3s):
Yeah, I think like as you were sort of going over those sort of like three kinds of symbolic actions, I was like thinking about like, sort of like flashing in my head was all the various stories of the Bible that I’ve heard about Jesus crossing the Sea of Galilee or Jesus healing this or that person or the various like fishes and loaves stories feeding the people. And I’m like, oh yeah, like I know all of these stories individually, but like when you just sort of like shine this particular light on it, you’re like, oh yeah, like this is what’s happening. But we, I had been so conditioned to read them as like little personal narratives or it was, everything was pointing towards Jesus as like a superhero, like glowing God walking around on earth with magic powers that I like missed the like ways in which all this is absolutely present and like why like Jesus could have healed anyone or could have fed anyone or could have journeyed anywhere.

1 (32m 9s):
Like what does these actions in these contexts mean and why is Mark highlighting them?

2 (32m 20s):
Yeah. And I think like for me when I started to uncover some of this, it was like, oh, oh, this is the good stuff, right? Yeah. Like this is, this is a much more inspiring and powerful and challenging call to be involved in something than like pray a prayer in the right kind of way and get, get your, get outta hell free card. And that it also, like there are so many things that are really, really subtle that we miss if we don’t know all of these contexts.

2 (32m 60s):
And also that because they’ve been missed, have been taught in really, frankly, often the opposite way than they were intended to be taken. Yeah. We’re gonna talk next week about, about the thing that you mentioned earlier. You know, leave your nets and follow me and like the actual meaning of that is gonna blow your mind and it’s so, so excited to talk more about it. But it’s like I, that’s why it’s so important to do this work and to really dig into this because it totally changes how you read and frankly for me it, it makes it so much more exciting and, and I’m excited to, to keep, to keep diving into this.

1 (33m 41s):
Yeah. So I think like when I think about sort of like my journey through faith, I think the, the way that I first approached the Bible was to take just like everything at face value and usually face value was also like the face value that the pastor told me was face value and just sort of like accept it all as like this is like literal history actually happened. This is who the, Jesus was. Like we have this like divinely inspired book great. Like we can know exactly who Jesus was. And then that I like started to look at the bible and scripture and translation and sort of how it was passed along and like copied and recreated over the years. I like started to bring a more sort of, you know, critical eye to it.

1 (34m 24s):
And like one of the things that we did when we, when I was stu like studying Jesus and in the undergraduate was like, this is the work of the Jesus seminar is sort of like trying to figure out, like trying to get at like the historical Jesus. So I don’t know if for folks are familiar, Matthew, mark and Luke are sometimes called the synaptic gospels. We, there’s a lot to that. But so we like look at like what stories are in Matthew, mark, and Luke. I’m like, that means something that they’re like in all three as opposed to just two or just in one or trying to compare the sayings of Jesus to other sayings of Jesus to try and figure out like what did Jesus most likely say versus like maybe Mark added this or maybe Matthew embellish that.

1 (35m 8s):
I think you can get a Bible written by the Jesus seminar that has like varying shades of red letters from like black to dark red to light pink or whatever. That’s sort of like there sort of this Jesus seminars assessment of like, Jesus almost certainly actually said this. Jesus almost certainly didn’t say this to try and like get at the real quote unquote Jesus. And I think I’ve like since moved a little bit beyond that. So like we can never know for sure what this person named Jesus in 30 CE did, said, went if he existed, like I guess maybe, probably, but like we can’t ever know for sure that.

1 (35m 56s):
And so all of Christianity is like based on what these earliest Christians thought and believed about Jesus and what they felt was important and what they passed on to us. And so not that it like, doesn’t matter like what Jesus actually did, but that like what Mark was saying about Jesus and the claims that Mark was making, just like the claims that Paul was making, just like the claims that Luke and John, all these folks that are writing those claims about Jesus in their context, I think is like just as important as whoever this person was that we can’t ever really know.

1 (36m 40s):
’cause there weren’t video cameras back then. And so like wrestling with what we do have is like super, super important.

3 (36m 47s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

4 (36m 56s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

3 (37m 4s):
We’ll see you next week.

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3 (1m 40s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

4 (1m 43s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts

3 (1m 47s):
From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

4 (1m 53s):
Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we are continuing our series on angelic troublemakers. Last week we talked to a veteran of the fight, and this week we’re talking to someone who’s newer. We’re delighted to be interviewing Afi Ro AFI is the author of the book Asylum, a memoir and manifesto. And in it he brings a personal commitment to his refugee work and the premise of the book that home is not where you feel safe and welcome only, but also how you make others feel safe and welcome.

4 (2m 34s):
Aada Porro was born in Wari Nigeria. He immigrated to the United States in 2016 as an asylum seeker and is now a refugee of the United States. AFI is a global gay rights activist, the founder of Refuge America, and one of the country’s most visible voices on the issue of displacement. Leading an organization with a vision to strengthen as a place of welcome for the L-G-B-T-Q, displaced people, a graduate of a NoGo State University and the School of business at NYU. He currently lives in New York City. This is an amazing conversation. We’re so excited to invite you in to learn more about a dafis work.

5 (3m 12s):
Well welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. So excited to dive in and dive, hear more about you and your story and your work. I would love to, to start out with just asking, can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and and what that was like for you and if, if there was any kind of religious upbringing that was a part of that.

6 (3m 36s):
Hi, my name is a, I grew up in war Nigeria, the south of Nigeria. My family come from the African traditional religion of Du State and they were worshipers of Shang Western Godde. My father still practiced the African traditional religion until 1999. So in 1999 there was gonna be the Y 2K, the dawn of the new millennium. So on December 31st, 1999, I still remember I was like nine years old. We all run into a church. It does the church in my community like a big Ezra.

6 (4m 21s):
We went there, we were praying till 12th and 12th. They like, happy New Year, you survived the white two. This is not a distraction. My father left the African traditional religion and baptized as a Christian, but my mom in 2003, I baptized as a Christian too and went through the confirmation process and I was taking communion until I was matured and I became a Pentecostal. I left the Anglican church when I was like 16 or so.

7 (4m 57s):
Yeah. And what was it that sort of drew you from the Anglican Church into the Pentecostal church?

6 (5m 4s):
It’s interesting because I didn’t know the driver in particular. When I left, I went to a boarding school and I got admitted to college at 17 or so and everybody in my college were going to the Pentecostal church, so I decided to join them. Sure. And you know, if you are going to become a priest, you have to go a school and it’s a long process, but to become a pastor in the Pentecost Church, you have to tongues and you do to six weeks seminar and you’re a pastor.

6 (5m 46s):
And I wanted to be a pastor because I felt like me as a gay person, that I was possessed and maybe if I become a pastor to end every condemnation that I’m supposed to face and become this straightforward person. And yeah, so I, I left to join the Pentecostal church with my student groups and later became a pastor in the Pentecostal church because it was like easier a process compared to the Anglican Church.

5 (6m 19s):
And what was your experience as a pastor in the Pentecostal church?

6 (6m 23s):
At the beginning it was great. If you can lie, if you can hide, you’re in a perfect place. I, I love the Christian religion. I still do up to this day because I’ve gone through a lot of persecution in my life. But I, I think that the Bible has become like a comforter in times of crisis in my life because there are scriptures I could go to that reminds me that there are people who have had great suffering compared to what I’m going through. There are people who lost their entire family and all their goods, all their animals, everything, and they still survive.

6 (7m 8s):
And there are people who face great challenge like David and they still like Joseph and they still end up being rewarded for being nce with the religion. So when I was in the Pentecostal church, I didn’t have any kind of like social life. ’cause I go to church on Sunday. I, I go to church as early as 5:30 AM I join in cleaning the church, I do bible study, I take a Bible study class, then I do worship. And after church I still end up cleaning the church. Then I leave around one.

6 (7m 48s):
So my entire Sunday I spend it from like 5:30 AM to one in the church. And when I come back home, I go back for like a bible group by 6:00 PM in the evening to 8:00 PM So all my community around me then were members of the church. So I felt very close relationship with members of the church and it was difficult to like deviate because if you deviates you’ll lose all the people you have because everything you have is tied to the church while is going good. It was great. I, I have friends, if I don’t have food in my home, they’ll prepare food and they would invite me to come and eat, like play games with people.

6 (8m 33s):
It was like one of the greatest experience of my life until, you know, I came out as gay and that was when it was difficult for me to be a member of the church as a gay person.

7 (8m 47s):
Yeah, I think your story, like that experience is one that so many LGBT LGBTQ people can relate to both, like looking for, you know, as a as as a, as a like safety, but also then it becomes a place of unsafety at the same time. So what was it that caused you to sort of risk it all by coming out as gay?

6 (9m 10s):
You know, I didn’t know that I would have the courage to come out as gay. My grandmother, when I was 11 years old, she used to take me to church and show all her friends. My grandmother was around 80 something years. She would show all her friends on Sunday, like older people to women. They would be like, oh, to meet my grandson, A that is going to become a pastor when he gets older. And you know, I’ll wear a, a tie and a pants and a tie and I’ll my, in my pocket I yes grandma, you know, like I have the favorite because I aspiring to be this person that is loved by my grandmother.

6 (9m 56s):
When I was growing older, my grandmother and I had this strong bond with like religion. We pray together. If she eats food, she’ll keep the, the a portion of the food for me. And if anybody comes to you like, no, you don’t pray with me, it definitely would take the food like that. So even losing that, the fear of losing that relationship with my grandmother was the most frighten thing for me as a person. Not even the backlash from the greater society. But when I was in college, about 19 years old, I tried to meet somebody on a gay app. There was no app, a website called Man, I, I think Manja.

6 (10m 42s):
So the guy was d he d that doesn’t show his face. So I, I didn’t know what was like deal. It was like, I don’t show my face, but if you want to meet, we can meet in a market square and we go to my place together. You know, I, I didn’t, I haven’t met gay people a lot then and everybody was like hiding. So I, if I wanted to like meet somebody, I would’ve to take direct. So we, I was in a market, so market in Nigeria is different. People are selling food, people are doing stuff, everything is happening.

6 (11m 22s):
So I was standing there and somebody honk, it’s like a Toyota blue car and wind down the passenger screen. I was like coming. So I entered, I knew about the guy. So we’re driving is a little bit older than me. I was like 19, it was like 33 and we drove into like a dead road. We just continued driving and we parked the car and he told me that, I told everybody that is in friend, you’re younger brother to my friend and you’re gonna school and I’m gonna give you stuff to take to school. That is the story you have to tell everybody.

6 (12m 3s):
I was like, no problem. We drove about five minutes and entered into a compound. So it was like a church. I was like, wow, you live in a church? It was like, yeah, I’m leaving with a, a friend upstairs of the church, like the, the vestry. So when we got into the vestry, I discovered that his picture was on the wall, the rest, a priest in the church, but I didn’t want to tell me because he felt like it will lead to him being outed. So I, I said, oh, you’re a priest. I was like, yeah, I’m practicing to become a priest.

6 (12m 43s):
You know, he wanted to touch me. I was like, don’t touch me like you’re lying to me and stuff like that. I slept in his place The next morning I woke up very early and went to the church. He was doing a communion mass in the morning, you know, I went back, took my stuff, he already dropped transportation money for me in the decks. It, instead of me to go to school, I went straight to my grandmother because I saw the kind of person I was gonna become, this kind of person that hide to sexuality. And the first person I would’ve to comment to was my grandmother. So I told her that I think I’m gay, I don’t have the language, but I think I sleep, I prefer to sleep with men than women.

6 (13m 24s):
And my grandmother was like, it’s okay. She was very old then. I dunno if she understand what I’m saying. She was like, it’s okay, I’ll screw. I like, it’s fine. So after telling my grandmother, I came back to school and I told some of my friends in school that, you know, I, I was having, I had a girlfriend then I told them that I’m pretending like I like this girl, I don’t like her, I’m going to break up this relationship. And they’re like, oh, this girl, two of you’re in love. I was like, we’re not in love. Everything I’ve been doing is pretty, but I didn’t come to them that I’m gay. Yeah, I just, my relationship. So it was that moment that I made a decision that I’m not going to hide who I’m, but I’m not going to be open about who I’m, but after I came out to my grandmother and to myself, I tried to meet another person on a gay dating app and it was a mob.

6 (14m 17s):
They pretended like they were gay, but like they, they mob four people, like they striped me naked, beat me up, took my money, went to the bank, took money from my atm. After that incident, I couldn’t argue who I’m anymore. A lot of people in the community, they already know that I was that guy that was beating, trying to sleep it another guy. So I just have to come out and say I’m gay.

5 (14m 44s):
And, and how has life been different for you since coming out

6 (14m 49s):
The church? First of I, I I, I used to be a pastor, they told me that no, I can’t be a pastor anymore. It sub too, it was like you can’t come to the church, we have to reconcile and all those things. And you know, I left the church and I hated my sexuality for about three years because you know, just so shame food that I went through that experience. But later on I moved to Abuja, the Federal Capital Territory in Nigeria and I found the underground gay community. So it’s like very interesting community. So people who fled different cities, they’ll come to Abuja.

6 (15m 31s):
Abuja is like DC Washington DC is a federal capital erritory. And in the evenings you, your friends would be like, oh we’re gonna a party. When you get to the party and you go like, there’s like regular party up on top, but underneath is like gay guys who brought their clothes, their wigs and everything and they change underneath. So it’s called the underground gay scene in Nigeria. It was then I found like a community, a group of people who are like openly gay with each other and life was really great because you know, I was like, I found a community.

6 (16m 12s):
But in 2013 the government of Nigeria passed a law called Marriage prohibition act, which criminalizes gay relationship by 14 years imprisonment activist, 10 years imprisonment, cohabitation of suspected gay men imprisonment, public imprisonment. So that safe evil in Abuja became like a, you know, in 2014 January we tried to do a that during like that. But somebody reported to the police and the police came and arrested everybody that were there. So there was just constant crackdown of any spaces where you could be gay in Nigeria.

6 (16m 57s):
But you know, in spite of that crackdown, there was a gay religious community in Abuja. So people come to this church in Abuja nearby straight people come to gay people come to, but the gay people coming to the church knows that majority of the guides there again. So that church was like a safe even for gay people especially where we started doing HIV and AIDS testing and providing access to medication for people. Because because of that law, most people are HIV as suspected to, so they couldn’t go to clinics.

6 (17m 38s):
But it’s that su that church community is where we can masque and we’re providing I testing C and that’s where people who test positive can get treatment access to condom and other forms of protection. Yeah. But my life quickly changed from the church boy to the anti anti kind of spaces like that because I had to, I had to be outspoken about things like this for other members of the community to pick point and say if is gonna that church, that means maybe that place might be safe for me to go.

6 (18m 22s):
But it wasn’t really a church, it was just a safe Yeah,

7 (18m 27s):
I know that now, right, that you are an act like a gay activist. And so I’m wondering can you, you’re, it sounds like you’re starting to touch upon that, but I would love for you to just share a little bit more about your activism and and your work.

6 (18m 42s):
Yeah, so as circumstances we have it, I continue doing activism in Nigeria for access to healthcare treatment for LGBTQ community members. And in 2016 I won an award by an organization called they advocate for micro vaccine for HIV positive people, people and my name and photo publish as a grassroots activist in Nigeria here in the US. So that to further in my own country, like a mob broke down my apartment and stuff happened. So I couldn’t live in my country anymore.

6 (19m 24s):
I had to flee. So I came to the US to seek asylum in 2016 and I was detained for about six months. After I was granted asylum, I became homeless. And it’s a situation many people face when they come to the us they experience a form of homelessness after they’re being released from the detention center. I started working first for an organization in New Jersey doing HIV testing and peer education. But I discovered that that wasn’t a big problem in the US as it was in Nigeria. So I created the first organization in New York City, a shelter for LGBTQ displaced people in 2018.

6 (20m 11s):
And my work surrounded providing access to housing for LGBTQ people are displaced in America and you don’t, when you do something that affects the population that you’re part of, people speak about you. So like other LGBTQ people speak about me in the community, that it created a space whereby I couldn’t come and this was where I was able to build my life. And I think media came in to do a media interview with me as a result of somebody we helped to became an MT in 20. And since then I’ve been using my platform to speak up about the issues LGBTQ displaced people face in America and the broader sense of what equality would mean for LGBTQ displaced people who find themselves in America.

6 (21m 3s):
And that is the work I’ve been doing for roughly four years now, is creating awareness on the issue of detention for LGBTQ identified people. Because we face an historic marginalization in our own country, we persecution to come to the US detention is a form of torture. And while I was at the detention center, one trans person from Honduras, female male to female, but because they couldn’t change their birth certificate in Honduras, they put them in a male detention center with me. And when they were released from the detention center, they came to stay in the shelter I created. So I, that was the first person we were advocating for why trans people should not be locked up in detention center.

6 (21m 51s):
And that advocacy has proven successful. DE detention center was locked up in New Jersey, housed about 400 people, but now’s housing less than 25 people. And the state of New Jersey have signed an agreement to close private prisons for detaining immigrant by 2026. So that these are some of the kind of advocacy I do is advocating to end detention of LGBTQ people coming to America to seek protection, creating favorable policies that will give people who are released from detention center access to housing. Recently I founded a new organization separate from the shelter I founded.

6 (22m 31s):
The shelter is still running, they have about nine staff. But I left the shelter because direct service was very difficult for me because I have that direct experience of being a displaced person. I created Refugee America, we do 3 1 1 service for LGBTQ displaced people. So if you arrive in Tijuana and you are detained and you’re released from the detention center, if you go to Refugee America website and write us that you’re currently at the border in Arizona or Texas, we can pay transportation for you to move to a city like Chicago, Denver, and New York and find LGBTQ supportive services to support you if you’re also in transition to find healthcare providers that can help.

6 (23m 17s):
And recently we started creating a guide for welcoming LGBTQ displaced people because you know, if you come to a new country and you have been marginalized, you might find it difficult to talk to a service provider. So if a service provider seek now on their websites that they’re inclusive of LGBTQ people with a flag or their pronouns are, you might begin to feel like you can open up and receive services, this sort of organization. So that’s the work I’m currently doing.

5 (23m 49s):
It’s amazing. Yeah, I’m I’m wondering if you have, I I’m sure that for some of our listeners who are in the US who are maybe even unaware that people are being detained, if, if someone wanted to find out if that’s happening in their state and how to organize against that, do you have any resources for where they should start that work?

6 (24m 17s):
Yeah, the, the detention center in almost all 50 states in America. So if you go to ww, freedom for immigrant org, freedom for Immigrant have a visual display of all the cities and states in America via detection centers are currently being located. And we are trying to end the mandatory detention across America because, you know, private prisons facilitate the detention of immigrants and the federal government have signed a bill to end the use of private prison for federal crimes, but they have not the use of private prisons for immigrants.

6 (25m 4s):
And one of the biggest group is called GO, they were formerly called Correction Corps of America. And you know, the funny thing is that the US is the highest detaining, they have the highest amount of detention of immigrants in the world and it costs about 201 each day to detain an immigrant. For the six months I was in detention center, that was about 40 something thousand. US there are alternatives to detention like per bracelet people could wear and bail. And that is the service Canada is currently using community services whereby community will sponsor an immigrant and if community sponsor an immigrant, five gay people say we’re gonna sponsor or our church is gonna sponsor an immigrant.

6 (25m 57s):
So we’re trying to get the US government to use alternatives to detention for immigrant. There’s an historic, there’s an historic trail that follows detention of immigrants is mostly black and brown people that have been detained in America. The first time detention was used in America, A Supreme Court judge said that this is unAmerican to detain people in America. But 1980 during Reagan administration, the Cuban and Asian migrants who were coming to America, they wanted to repel them from coming into, so they started the use of detention. Again, it’s not the Trump administration or the administration, almost Clinton, Obama, George Bush, they all use detention for immigrants.

6 (26m 49s):
And this is the 21st century with looking at bail reform for Americans. We should also be looking at what other forms of reform can be applicable to immigrants coming to seek protection in America, especially the people. I’ll tell you something that happened to a friend of mine when I came to the US in 2016, after I was detained, a friend of mine who was working in the same organization with me came in 2017, you know, it, it was locked up in the detention center in de in at planter. And he was HIV positive, you know, it took them two months to get him on his medication.

6 (27m 30s):
He almost died because his viral load increased and he brought his medication from Nigeria. They said he cannot take the medication that he has, do the tests in the detention center. And he told me that one day he had issue with his, they had to do cleaning, so they had to take him from the detention center to a nearby hospital. You won’t from the detention center to he got to the clinic, they chain into his to share why the dentist was trying to clean his teeth. It’s like so terrible. Like how they treat people who come to America to see protection.

6 (28m 11s):
I think that there’s a complicated relationship with like immigrants and like the rights of immigrant in America because Americans are like, why should we focus on the rights of immigrants when we too have our issue? There’s a trans legislation all across America, don’t say gay in Florida, but I think that if we really want to achieve equality in America, it has to be for everybody and not just one set. Because if Americans are treated differently from immigrant, that means we’re permiting LGBTQ people to be, to to be on the end of persecution.

6 (28m 54s):
Why we Americans are like, we’re safe not to be persecuted.

5 (28m 58s):
Yeah. Wrong. And historically all of these different oppressions and marginalizations are all connected and so we have to work for all of them at the same time, not just one or the other.

6 (29m 11s):
I, I think that it’s like surreal that Americans don’t think about outside America. If you are married as a gay person, you have gay rights in America, you and your husband cannot be transferred for work stuff to Nigeria because your marriage will not be accepted there. We can’t go Saudi Arabia, not that we’re gays and what is equality for us when we’re still restricted to be able to do things around the world. So if we’re gonna change what it means to be a free gay person in America, we have to also influence other parts of the world.

6 (29m 60s):
And this is one thing I want to say about being a religious person in America and also thinking about where your money goes to around the world. Homophobia in Africa is flawed by the west. There’s a dark money channel that moves from evangelical churches in America to Africa. The first anti-gay bill that was passed in Africa was in 2012 in Uganda. The bill was written by a white evangelical from America handed to a senate official in Uganda and sponsored the bill. And the bill was passed after Uganda passed their bill in 2012.

6 (30m 43s):
Nigeria passed their bill in 2013 and that has for anti LGBTQ eight across Africa, there are still evangelical churches that preach that being gay is bad and you know, the, the strong sense of homophobia in Africa is fought by Pentecost star evangelical Christians who come to preach that the west is already destroyed, don’t allow Africa to be destroyed.

7 (31m 13s):
Yeah. So if, if someone is listening and they’re like enraged by what they’re hearing, they’re also inspired by what they’re hearing. What is like the next action that you would tell someone to take to get involved and make a difference?

6 (31m 31s):
I think that we tend to think about it too big to show it’s like this is a systemic problem. There’s nothing I can do. When I came to America, I was expecting to be accepted by the gay community in America because from afar on Facebook, YouTube, I see gay people celebrating pride. I, I wanted to leave that true utopia of being a gay person. But when I came here in the gay community, I’m a refugee and in the refugee community I’m black in the black community, I’m African and Africans, I’m gay.

6 (32m 13s):
There is no integration or intersectionality between gay Americans and gay immigrants. There is this like large division of like we have HRC, we have glad we have Gleason, but they’re only focused on like gay American rights. I think that there need to be more intersectionality between gay Americans and gay immigrants who are coming here because when we come to this country, our one big dream is to be a part of that equality agenda. So I think that they need to be more inclusivity between gay Americans and gay immigrant.

6 (32m 57s):
That is one that reduced the division. Secondly, when I came to America after I was released from the detention center, a church group in New Jersey, they contributed two 40 for me to get a shelter at YMCA in new for two weeks. You know, they gave, there are gay people who are trying to support people here, but I think many gay people do not know that they’re gay immigrants locked up in detention center. And I was visited by this church group from Riverside, a straight lady about 80 something years old and a straight guy about seven something years old.

6 (33m 37s):
They were visiting me, they were writing me letters like pen. There’s so many gay people who have been historically marginalized who are in detection center that we gay Americans can write them letters to say that you are part of us, you’re welcome here and when you get outta this detention center you’ll be welcomed in America. You know, the first time I visited gay, it was like a shock for me. I’ve never visited gay. I was like, oh my God, you could do this. Like there so many immigrants who would love to be to their first day by America or you know, there’s so many people having isolation when they come to America that if you’re organizing something you can say, oh I’ll invite this set of immigrants to join me.

6 (34m 26s):
And that is what I try to do in New York City with my shelter. There’s so many gay people in New York from Wall Street to the financial sector, mostly the financial sector that because I was vocal, they’re like, oh, you’re my friend, I’ll invite you to my place. And when I get to their place, I’m like, you have a big space. Do you want to host an event? I lemme bring seven other immigrants to your place. And they’re like, do you think it’s safe? I’m like, okay, why do you think it’s safe for me and not the, so I think that we need to create a sense of belonging, safety and coming for people who are coming here and it be as lead to as helping a give person do their resume when they come to the us.

6 (35m 15s):
We recently launched the with 10th partnership for refugee, the TQ mentorship program for LBQ immigrants. So more 36 company sign up to reach from TD Bank to Deloitte and essential JP Morgan Chase, whereby they bring a few of their staff to mentor LGBTQ immigrant. There is no commitment to give them a job, but it’s just like, I’m meet you four times a year, talk about you. And recently we had a partnership with Facebook provided a training for LGBTQ people who wanna be digital ma marketers for them to be able immigrants who wanna be digital marketers.

6 (36m 2s):
And after the 12th training, some of them got employed by Facebook and other organizations. So I think it’s just more integration into the American society to create opportunity for not just immigrant, but for the LGBTQ community in America. We yeah, the immigrant community. Yeah,

7 (36m 22s):
A lot of our well centers are in the US but we also have folks listening from all around the world, including like some in Nigeria and Honduras and places like that. And so I’m wondering like what message do you have for folks outside of the US or Canada that might be in places that are less friendly to LBT rights than, I mean, the US is like, we have our own, we have our own problem. And so even saying that like us is also not always the most friendly, but to folks who might be listening from Nigeria or Uras or other, some of those places that you mentioned.

6 (36m 59s):
You know, when I was writing my book, that was the first thing I thought about is that when I was this 17 years old teenager struggling with my sexuality, the church was not a friendly place. I wish I had known somebody who was like me to just say to me that you are normal, you’re okay, you are not possessed. And literature kind of influenced culture too. Like podcasts influenced culture a lot and somebody is hearing my voice from somewhere and they’re relating to say that that person is telling my story, but it’s also giving me a sense of hope that I too can one day live in that reality of being a free gay person.

6 (37m 47s):
And I think that that is the only thing I can offer them at this point is that you’re seen and who you’re is completely normal. It’s not your faults, it’s just that society is built in a way that is meant to make us feel like we’re not normal.

7 (38m 5s):
Yeah. You mentioned your book. Can you share more about your book? What’s in it, where to get it?

6 (38m 13s):
Yeah, so I wrote a book called Asylum by Simon and Schuster. It’s gonna be out June 7th. You can get it in any bookstore across America. I I like to support independent bookstore, but some people outside America, there’s is gonna be available in English countries like Canada, uk, Australia, and even Nigeria and Kenya, Simon Schuster have different websites in different countries where you can get to the book. When I was writing the book, I was writing it for people like myself at the beginning.

6 (38m 54s):
I just wanted to have an influence towards someone growing up in a country whereby they’re gay, they’re Christian, they’re black, and they’re like, that is me. This is my struggle, this is my experience. But as I was continuing writing, I was thinking about it that now I live in America and many Americans are naive towards the fact that people living here when they get here, it’s not all rain, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. There is still a lot of struggle. So I wanted to leave on the pages, the experiences of someone who came here who was largely naive towards IIII, I was biased towards a lot of things and I was naive about a lot of things.

6 (39m 40s):
I didn’t know that Jewish people existed. I I, I read the, the Jewish people existed when I came to New York and so that were Jewish people in Brooklyn. If I call my mom and tell another, oh, I saw a Jewish person, she’d be like, oh, you lying. So it’s that kind of like naiveness I grew up in. It was very religious, just anything outside of Christian religion was bad. Were gonna go, you’re gonna destroyed. So I think my memoir is also an opportunity for me to see how much I have grown as a person and how much we all grow as a person each day. And to give hope to people that despite the fact that things are difficult right now, I don’t imagine if I can be a gay person in like 90, 55 or if I could be out to be myself in like 90, 80 whereby I’ll be sacked for my job, for being gay.

6 (40m 39s):
And it was those people who inspired us right now to be activists, to be who we’re, to be free and to be inspired to do something that will impact another generation. And it’s not left alone to us to leave for ourself. It’s left alone for us to leave for ourself, also for another generation to come in and reap the benefit of what we’re fought for. Like the way we’re reaping the benefit of what other people fought for. They lost their job, they lost their livelihood, they died in war. So that we can say that we’re gay, we’re bisexual and transgender and love is love and rainbow and everything.

7 (41m 19s):
Thank you for all of that. We’ll put links to your book and your website, your social media in the show notes of this episode of the podcast, that folks can contact you easily and find the, the find

5 (41m 33s):
The book if they wanna. Before we go, is there anything else that you wanna share?

6 (41m 40s):
Nothing really Recently, you know, the Ukrainian crisis brought a lot of limelight into the plight of refugees globally. And a lot of people of fates have been saying like, oh, this crisis is bad. It’s like we have to do everything we can to support the Ukrainian people, you know, but I’m very shocked, I’m very shocked that it happened in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in mamma, and people were not that because the US population and their empathy for immigrants is geared towards quote unquote a white institution.

6 (42m 25s):
So I think that those thing I would leave everybody with is including myself, is that we have to constantly check our biases when issues are happening around the world and say that what do I, what am I missing or what is not represented in the table? And how can we be more inclusive in terms of like creating a better world for everybody and not just a certain group of people.

5 (42m 52s):
One question that we like to end with all of our guests is to ask what is something that’s bringing you joy lately?

6 (43m 1s):
If you look behind me, I just got my diploma and today I got my commencement gown. I just completed my master’s from NYU School of Business and May 18th I’ll be doing my commencement. So it’s, I can be able to go to school and be myself in this country every day. It’s like a blessing.

5 (43m 26s):
I see you rocking your sweatshirt. Congratulations. I recognize them.

6 (43m 35s):
Yeah, the violence. Yeah. I say I’m just like NYU Journal. I love it. I have in my office table, you know, it’s cost me a lot of money to do the program, A lot of money. I could be their house with it. So, you know, that’s what alumni does to you, is that they sell you the promise. But I think that I, I, I’m just grateful that I’m able to live in a country whereby I can achieve my dream every day.

5 (44m 3s):
Thank you so much for, for being here and for sharing your story. It’s just so lovely to, to hear and to get more involved in, in the things that you’re talking about. So thank you for being here.

6 (44m 16s):
Thank you very much. Awesome,

5 (44m 17s):
Thanks.

8 (44m 19s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

5 (44m 28s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com.

9 (44m 31s):
You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

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Millie celebrates Jewish diversity and advocates for a more inclusive and accepting Jewish community. She believes in Jewish empowerment through knowledge and awareness of Jewish history and believes a better understanding of Jewish history and who Jews are as a people is the best way to fight antisemitism.

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Links from the episode:

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/

https://www.rabbisandralawson.com/

Resources:

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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
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1 (33s):
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2 (39s):
We encourage one another, laugh together, form friendships and learn too.

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When you join the community, you get access to workshops, courses, and quarterly worship experiences,

2 (48s):
But more than that, you get access to a network of people who get it and who will journey with you. To find out more, go to queer theology.com/community.

1 (57s):
I am so excited about our guest today, Millie, who on TikTok is Millie? Not so. Vanilli is, I think the TikTok who trained the TikTok algorithm into sending me in deep, deep, deep into the world of Jewish TikTok. And I am so thankful for her. I have learned so much from her. Many, many videos about Judaism and antisemitism on her TikTok and on her Instagram, and we had a really beautiful conversation with her. Millie is a 34-year-old Jewish mother and accidental TikTok creator. Her grandparents are her greatest source of inspiration. Her grandmother, having been a Holocaust survivor and her grandfather, a victim of McCarthyism.

1 (1m 41s):
Millie, celebrates Jewish diversity and advocates for a more inclusive and accepting Jewish community. She believes in Jewish empowerment through knowledge and awareness of Jewish history and believes a better understanding of Jewish history and who Jews are as a people is the best way to fight antisemitism. Pako up. You are in for a real Treats today. Hello, Millie, and thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I’m really excited to dive into your backgrounds and your experiences as a creator on TikTok.

3 (2m 14s):
Yeah, thank you for having me.

1 (2m 16s):
You’re welcome. So just to get started, for obviously the folks at home who don’t maybe know much about you, can you share just a little bit about your sort of faith and cultural experiences sort of growing up and how that is or is not, or shaped sort of your life and who you are today?

3 (2m 41s):
Well, growing up I attended, you know, secular schools always. And so there was always just a handful of Jews in the schools that I went to. And it definitely experiencing, I think a lot of Jews who grow up gonna Hebrew school, they have such a different experience because the going to school with Christian kids and kids that aren’t Jewish, you immediately start experiencing anti-Semitism and you immediately start hearing anti-Semitic rhetoric.

3 (3m 34s):
So I think I grew up very aware that I was different and I always felt different when, you know, we did go to Hebrew school, which was just on the weekend, and you know, we did go to our, our temple, our reform temple, and we did go to Jewish summer camp. Me and my sister, and I definitely was very aware of how, how different I felt in different spaces as a Jew. And I was always aware of my family history and the, you know, my grandmother, my Oma being a Holocaust survivor.

3 (4m 25s):
I don’t remember the first time I start started hearing about this. I don’t remember the first time I started hearing about what my grandfather, my OPA went through being discriminated against, you know, for being Jewish. It just was always something that was in my awareness and these things definitely shaped who I am today. And growing up, growing up, growing up, being aware that everyone hates you or in the very least doesn’t understand you, I think is really, it’s, it’s a unique experience and it gives you a different sense of, of pride in who you are and where you come from.

1 (5m 17s):
You know, it’s, it’s funny you talk about just like growing up, going to secular school and it’s, I’m just like struck at how like people who create online, like we only see or we only reveal like parts of ourselves, right? And so like as a sort of a Jewish creator on TikTok, all, most all a lot of your content is about sort of Judaism and your experiences of, of your faith and your culture and of course antisemitism and discrimination, but I would’ve, you know, never known that you grew up going to a secular school. And so how did you come into being a, I don’t know, TikTok making content on, on, on TikTok

3 (6m 3s):
Completely by accident? I had no idea what TikTok even was. When I got on TikTok, I had seen other people posting their TikTok videos onto Instagram, which I was super late to Instagram. Like I’m not a technology person. I was, I was late to Facebook. So the fact that I got on TikTok when it was even, I mean, I, I saw someone posting like transformation videos and so I thought it was an app where you could make cool little videos and like edit them.

3 (6m 46s):
And I was like, I wanna try that. And I got on TikTok and you know, at first all I was seeing was your typical teenager and a lot of mom content, which I actually can’t stand. And I just was messing around and I had seen that there, I had seen that there were people who made posts just talking and I was like, I love to talk, I can do this, I can talk. I had just gotten, yeah, so I had just gotten onto TikTok shortly before my Oma was kind of on her way out of this world and nobody was following me.

3 (7m 38s):
Like nobody, it was like a few random people seeing my stuff and I was just talking about random stuff. I was like making random posts. I was like, I, I like Poshmark better, I have more followers there. And then my Oma passed away and I was so moved by some of the things that she was saying in her last days of life and knowing what she had gone through, the fact that she was talking about her life only in good terms, only how, how beautiful it was.

3 (8m 23s):
And I just wanted to make a post and I was, whoever’s gonna see this is gonna see this and if it helps anybody know that no matter what they’re going through, they can come out the other side and have a great life then that, I’m just gonna say this. And so I, I got, I don’t know what I thought, I thought it was like so many people and it was maybe a thousand people saw this post and I decided TikTok was the way, I had always known that some way, somehow when my Oma passed away, I, I just wanted to share her story and that I felt I had this responsibility to share her story and carry on her legacy in the last few years of her life.

3 (9m 13s):
I, you know, she was in her nineties, I became very aware that she was not gonna be around forever and to make sure that her story was still out there, that it was not forgotten it, you know, it just felt like a responsibility because the idea that people are gonna forget was terrifying to me. The idea that these people are not gonna be around forever to share their own stories was terrifying. And so I just started sharing her story and I started getting followers and it was really cathartic and healing and I, I started getting followers and at some point I was like, I have more to say than just talk about my Oma and my own family history.

3 (10m 12s):
I’ve always had a lot to say, you know, before TikTok I was all caps typing on Facebook, yelling at the people I went to high school with about everything under the sun, including antisemitism. So, you know, I I was like, I’m just gonna start saying what I have to say here on TikTok. And I had gained somewhat of a following maybe 20,000 followers at this point, and people started having questions and people started looking at me as a Jewish voice and I just kept talking.

3 (10m 52s):
And it was interesting because initially I really thought I had followers be because of Oma. And the more I continued just speaking my truth and my truth as inspired by Oma who always spoke her truth, I kept getting more followers. And so, you know, at this point I I I’m just, I know what I’m doing, but I’m here and people are listening.

1 (11m 26s):
Yeah. You know, I I think that Shay and I sometimes feel this tension of like telling the stories that like, we wanna tell ’cause are meaningful to us versus like having conversations like with and to other queer people versus like being aware that straight people are listening in and then like, why do we have to like, like doing the work of educating straight people and I’m, you know, I I know that you’re audience, you have like a mixed audience of, of Jewish folks and non-Jewish folks. And so like how, how has it been for you sort of balancing like having conversations you wanna have about things that are important to you versus like educating it’s, you know, antisemitic people or, or, or educating people who want to do better but just like aren’t Jewish, you know?

3 (12m 19s):
Yeah, it’s definitely, it’s definitely a balance because I do have a lot of Jewish followers and I get a lot of feedback from them. Thank you for saying the things that I couldn’t put into words. And I, I feel like part of being empowered as a Jew is knowing Jewish history and there’s a lot of Jews that they don’t know a lot of this stuff that I’m talking about. And I feel it’s important to empower them in, in, in speaking, you know, their own truth as Jews. And I feel like it’s important to empower them with the knowledge of our history as Jews.

3 (13m 6s):
And I feel like if I can say things that they don’t know how to put into words or you know, they don’t feel comfortable saying and they can share my videos or pass them along and that’s helpful to them, that’s great. But I do also have a huge following of people that wanna be better allies and I have a huge following of deconstructing Christians. And so it’s definitely a balance of creating content for myself because I still need to sometimes find enjoyment in this even though it’s, it’s definitely labor, creating content for other Jews and actually educating the people that need to be educated because there’s so many people that I hear from that are like, wow, I never thought as a deconstructing Christian, I never thought about this this way or so many people, I didn’t realize that anti antisemitism was so prevalent.

3 (14m 15s):
And so it’s, it’s finding a balance and it’s also the balance in doing all of those things and self care. But for the most part I just say what I think is important, I just say what I’m thinking about, what’s been weighing heavy on me or what I’ve been feeling excited about and I just go for it and it’s gonna resonate with somebody. But it’s definitely interesting, you know, the feedback that I get from various groups of people and I, you know, my target audience is not just Jews or not just, you know, gu not just non-Jew.

3 (15m 9s):
It’s kind of trying to make it for everybody that either wants to learn or wants to feel validated.

1 (15m 19s):
Yeah, it’s a really beautiful space that you cultivated and like, I mean obviously there’s bullshit in the comments, but also there’s like some really, there’s some really wonderful stuff that goes on in the comments as well.

3 (15m 30s):
Yeah.

1 (15m 31s):
I’m wondering, so you know, our audience is primarily Christian, some folks who are, you know, solidly Christian, some folks are in that, you know, deconstructing Christianity phase of their knees, others who are considering other religions. And I’m wondering, you know, wonder know for folks who are not Jewish who want to like sort of like do a better job of learning about Judaism or sort of ridding their Christianity from antisemitism or just sort of like being better allies. Do you have any sort of advice on, on what folks could do to, for like work in solidarity with, with Jewish folks better?

3 (16m 12s):
I mean the main thing, the main thing is listen, listen to Jews. And I think, so what I’ve really been thinking about, because someone recently asked me, is there a way to be Christian and not be anti-Semitic? And I think there is, but I think it takes a lot of work and it a lot of self-awareness. And I think my intention, you know, I, I talk a lot about the harm Christianity has done to Jews throughout history and it’s never my intention to make people hate Christianity or wanna leave Christianity.

3 (17m 7s):
It’s more useful to have allies within the Christian community than it’s to have allies outside of the Christian community. I don’t want there to be no Christianity. I want Christianity and Christian to do better. And that starts with learning your own history, learning the history of Christianity and how it relates to Judaism and listening to Jews about how we interpret the Torah, what we believe and what what we practice versus what they’ve been told within the church, what they’ve been told by other Christians about Judaism.

3 (17m 57s):
Because that’s the biggest problem is so many Christians have been taught so much about Judaism and it’s wrong, it’s all wrong. And they’ve been, they’ve been not taught about their own history as Christians.

2 (18m 15s):
Yeah, I was, I was really struck by what you said earlier about, you know, both how much you were aware of and entrenched in your own history, but also about how important that is for you to, to have those conversations with folks you who dunno their own history. And I was just really thinking and so struck by how many folks I know don’t know anything about Christian history, the history of how we got certain theologies, right? The, the history of Judaism, like all of that and how detrimental that is to not only our understanding of our own faith, but like of being of the ability to be in solidarity with other people because we don’t even know what our own story has been.

2 (19m 3s):
And so I I find so much resonance in, in what you’ve said there about, about knowing your history and how important that is.

3 (19m 11s):
Well, yeah, and that’s, you know, one of the huge fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity from early on we start, I mean it’s not, and people don’t understand, like Judaism is, is not just a religion and we’re not just gonna Hebrew school to learn about what we’re supposed to believe in terms of God and all of these things. We’re going to Hebrew school to learn about our culture and a lot of that is our history. And we do learn about antisemitism, we start getting taught about this very young, and the history is such a, a integral part of our education as Jews.

3 (20m 0s):
And that goes hand in hand with the antisemitism that we start to experience very early on as Jews. I started getting told by my Christian peers in maybe second, third grade that I was going to help because I was Jewish. And, and so I started becoming aware of their learn. They’re learning this about, they’re learning this about Jewish Jews and Judaism and I’m learning something totally different. And, and while Jews are getting taught about their history and their culture, Christians are getting taught about a belief system.

3 (20m 47s):
And it’s a belief system that has come from what they believe is Judaism, but the, but the beliefs are so different and so, and they’re not, they’re not taught about their own history where history is such an important part of our Jewish education. History is not a part of the Christian education from my perspective and from what I’ve experienced with Christians, they are taught what’s in their Bible and they are taught what they should believe in in terms of how a higher power and, and apart from that, there’s, there’s, that’s just it.

3 (21m 34s):
And they’re taught that, you know, Jews are, we’ve rejected the Messiah and we’re wrong. And they don’t, they don’t get taught about how Christianity has tried to reconcile those differences. They don’t get taught about the actual physical actions that have taken place because the beliefs are, are different. And, and, and those, you know, differences and in that history, a lot of pain has been caused and trauma and you know, then they wanna come, you know, to us and, and save us.

3 (22m 22s):
And it’s so, and they have no idea and they have no idea why we react, react the way that we do.

1 (22m 31s):
Yeah. Oh man, what I learned from my, like evangelical church growing up about like what Judaism is both like first century Judaism and modern Judaism is just like, I mean, so completely wrong compared to what I, you know, like hearing from my friends who are Jewish directly or in school, like from my professors who are, who are Jewish and it’s just like, oh, they was just like, it’s just like, there’s just like so many inaccuracies. It’s like a whole other just like, I don’t know, like make believe people that then, you know, Christianity uses to just sort of demonize. And so I’m wondering for you, like what are some of the most meaningful parts of your, your Judaism, whether that’s like a part of the, the faith component or the cultural component or how those, you know, are intertwined?

3 (23m 25s):
I mean, for me, what’s always re resonated with me is we place more emphasis on our actions than our beliefs. You know, it’s about doing the mitzvahs and it’s about what we do not versus what what we believe. And so that leaves so much room for us to question and contemplate and be individuals and, and we continue to participate in Judaism because we are Jews.

3 (24m 11s):
Like it’s who we’re, and it’s, and it’s, it’s what, so Rabbi Sandra, who is the rabbi that I stand girl over, what, what she has said repeatedly is that we were a people,

1 (24m 30s):
Oh my god, me too. She left a comment on one of my tiktoks the other day and I died,

3 (24m 34s):
Okay. When Rabbi Sandra and I became mutuals, I was like, this is all the validation I’ve ever needed in my entire life. But what she’s repeatedly said,

1 (24m 46s):
What

3 (24m 46s):
She’s repeatedly said, which it resonates with me so much and it’s just so true, is that we were a people and then Christianity came along and turned us into a religion. And that is so true. And so for me, it’s not like I’m doing this because this is what I believe I’m doing this because this is who I’m as a person and, and it’s, it it nurtures my soul. And, and so it’s like it Judaism reminds me to live in, in the moment because in terms of death, we don’t have the answers. Like Judaism is notoriously vague when it comes to the afterlife.

3 (25m 27s):
And it’s not that we don’t believe in it, but it’s very vague and we are told kind of like, eh, don’t worry about it. And as someone who is constantly in existential crisis mode and has an immense fear of death, It reminds me, Sam, yeah, it reminds me to just be here now to like live in the moment. It’s like, let’s focus on the actions, let’s focus on connecting to my ancestors and let’s focus on what I’m doing right now. Let’s be here now. And I love that about Judaism and then just the, the, so the social justice like aspect where, where literally taught Tik, it’s our job to heal the world.

3 (26m 23s):
And and that’s what, you know, so many people don’t understand. There’s this misconceptions about what the chosen people means. It’s like, no, we’re not chosen to be God’s favorite. We’re not chosen to get into doesn’t. And and I, and I take it very seriously and you know, the laws that were given to us, they’re impossible. They’re impossible for any one person to, to adhere to all of, and that’s not even the point.

3 (27m 4s):
But, you know, I think a lot of Christians look at a lot of this stuff as a burden because they’re seeing it through a Christian lens. But really it’s a gift because again, back to what Rabbi Sandra says, we are a people and, and we are a nation and we needed, you know, to, as a nation of people, we needed to figure out how to do life. And they are guidelines how to do life and how and above anything else to, to live a, a just and meaningful life that is not causing harm to others and not causing harm to the planet.

3 (27m 47s):
And those are things, and of course I, you know, speak from a reform perspective, but I’ve spoken to conservative and orthodox Jews who feel the same way. But yeah, those are the things that to me are the most meaningful about Judaism and resonate with me the most. And when I, you know, and I’m not perfect and I practice my own brand of Judaism, but when I participate in Judaism and Jewish ritual and I’m around other Jews, I literally feel the strength of my ancestors. And I love that.

4 (28m 24s):
That’s beautiful.

1 (28m 26s):
I love that so much. So a few weeks ago, Shane and I were interviewed on this podcast about evangelicalism and the host asked us like, do you think evangelicalism, like is worth saving, can be saved? Like is there any good that could come outta that? And Shea and I were like, no, it’s gotta go. And so, you know, I think, I think that your, I think that your TikTok video about like, is it possible to be Christian and not anti-Semitic? I think it was one of the first ones that I saw about you. And I remember texting Shane being like, oh my God, what if we have to burn it all down? I think we might have, I think we might. So, so the, I mean, it’s very gracious of you to say, no, I don’t think Christianity has to cease existing, but you, like you could, this is a safe space for you to say that.

1 (29m 11s):
And I would, I would take that with conviction, but you know, since you did say, well, yes, but it’s very, very, very difficult to do that. Like what would your advice be to Christians who are like, oh fuck, like my religion, like, has historically and in present day continues to be antisemitic, kind of like just by it existing. And so like what, what if anything can we do to make it not so,

3 (29m 41s):
So much of Christianity that in the way that it’s practiced and preached on, you know, globally and wide scale, ha has to get reframed and reworked it. It can’t be that Jesus came to save everybody and now there’s no longer a need for Judaism. It has to be that the Jewish people have their own, you know, covenant with God and their own agreement. And that is separate from Christianity. There just needs to be separation.

3 (30m 22s):
It has to stop being supersessionism. It has to stop being, this is a continuation. It has to stop being this idea that Jewish people have rejected our Messiah. And, and there has to be a respect of our, our text and how we read them and how, you know, and what we believe. Because as long as Christians believe that Jews are, you know, doomed to the fiery pits of hell, we’re gonna have a problem. And I think that is the biggest thing because people get really hateful about it.

3 (31m 10s):
And when you start trying to have these conversations with Christians, they get very defensive and they really, really cannot let go of the idea that it’s, it’s okay, it’s okay that I don’t believe in Jesus. You don’t have to save me and I’m not going to hell. Like that’s just it. This idea that you have to believe one way or else go to be damned. It’s like, yeah, you know, and I don’t know, I don’t know how, it’s a lot of unlearning and I’ve seen pastor pastors and preachers on TikTok who, who are, who are doing it, who are saying, well, let’s reframe this Bible passage.

3 (32m 5s):
Let’s like reframe this. And, you know, and, and that’s just what needs to happen on a, on a wide scale. It’s, you know, and accepting that if we say that our Torah doesn’t say what you are telling us, it says, then it, then it doesn’t say that like, you know, just calling it out, just calling it out and just listening to Jewish voices and listening and accepting and being open-minded. It’s, and again, learning, learning, learning your own history, learning Jewish history and learning Christian history.

2 (32m 44s):
As someone who’s a huge book nerd, I’m wondering if you have any recommends for someone who wants to understand better how to read the Torah.

3 (32m 56s):
Yeah, listen to rabbis. There are find, you know, Christians will often be like, but it says right here in the Bible. And it’s like, that’s not what it says in the Torah. And they’re convinced it’s the same thing. It’s not the same thing. And get, get Jewish translations and read the Jewish translations. My, my Hebrew learning is a really great website. They have the weekly Torah portions and they have the translations and they have like, like, I don’t know, almost cliff notes explanations and they’re, they’re Jewish explanations and their Jewish cliff notes and their Jewish summaries and it, yeah, listen to rabbis and read Jewish translations and yeah, definitely my Jewish learning do com is really, really great website if anybody wants to get information on what, what Jews believe the says and what, what Jewish interpretations are, I think that’s really helpful.

3 (34m 17s):
I’ve had a lot of people ask questions and I’ve just referred them there and they’ve come back to me and been like, oh my gosh, I really had no idea. I just, you know, the Christian Bible says this and like, yeah, I didn’t even know the Christian Bibles like that.

1 (34m 38s):
Yeah. I would also add, like, go follow you on TikTok at Milli, not so Vanilli. And you know, I think like, and you also, like, you are constantly like stitching to people or dueting the people and you know, I think like listeners can sort of like use you as an entryway into all sort of just like amazing, diverse, you know, Jewish voices. It’s not like, like you were saying, it’s not just one person, but we all have different opinions and different perspective on stuff. And I think like not just being like, oh, well I read one book, I yeah, I talked to one person.

3 (35m 14s):
Well, yeah, that’s the other thing is you have to listen to many Jewish voices because part of our culture and part of our religion is, you know, critic critical thinking and arguing, like literally. And you know, there’s a saying two Jews, three opinions, and that’s for a reason and none of us agree on anything. And so you have to get a, a broad perspective when it comes to the religion, definitely listen to rabbis like above all else, if a rabbi you know is saying something that doesn’t sit right with you, seek out another rabbi, you know, and then get a bigger picture and then piece it together.

3 (36m 2s):
If there is something that you find Jew, after Jew, after Jew is saying the same thing, listen to that. If you find Jew after Jew after Jew and then you find the one Jew saying something, that’s where then you use your critical thinking skills, you know, and try to figure that out for yourself. So yeah, it’s, it’s getting a wide variety of opinions and a and a and a bigger picture and understanding, you know, Jews are not a monolith and, and you know, using your brain about that.

1 (36m 45s):
So I, I know that like TikTok can really be like sapo of grossness sometimes, but like, what have you really enjoyed about your experience being on TikTok and sort of being a creator there?

3 (37m 2s):
I love the Jewish community. I’ve made so many friends, especially in this pandemic, being able to have a Jewish community. It’s so important. I feel like as Jews we are lost without each other. And so being able to still have a community while in quarantine, being able to find people that really, really do wanna do better and the intersectionality, there’s the, the diversity of Jewish identities can, can really, really be seen on TikTok. And I love that.

3 (37m 42s):
I love that I have become friends with like, a lot of, not just Christians but Christian leaders, a lot of ministers and pastors and preachers who are really, really doing the work. And it gives me a lot of hope and a lot of faith and it makes me feel a little bit less doomed. And it’s been really rewarding seeing the people who it clicks for. I say something and they are like, I’ve never thought of that. I’m so sorry. I’ve been, you know, I’ve had my head up my ass my entire life and I think I need to remove it now.

3 (38m 28s):
And that’s, that’s been really, that’s been a really positive experience being that I’m not trying to make white supremacists and Nazis like me. It’s the people that had no idea that they had these unconscious anti-Semitic biases. And, and a lot of people are really unpacking that, and it’s because of TikTok, which is insane.

1 (38m 56s):
Yeah, I feel like I’ve, you know, you know, had Jewish friends growing up and studied religion in college, so like with rabbis and do this work. And I still, even, even with all of that, you and the other creators on TikTok are still like blowing my mind on a daily and weekly basis. So, so thank you for the work that you put in.

3 (39m 16s):
Yeah. Thank you.

1 (39m 18s):
And then one of the questions that we’ve kind of been asking all of our guests is like, separate from your work or outside of your work, what’s something that’s been bringing you joy lately?

3 (39m 30s):
Hmm. Well, I mean, I, it’s winter now. I do have a little kind of greenhouse set up in my yard and it’s too cold for a lot of stuff, but I, I can do root vegetables and greens and so I’ve, I’ve got my carrots and beets are, are going strong and I’ve got some kale and some arugula, and I’m already like, ready for spring. I’m ready to hit the ground running. And that’s like the, I don’t know what else, because otherwise I’m trapped in my house with my kids and I, I love them, but this, this pandemic’s been rough and being outside and have, having something to nurture and grow that doesn’t yell at me.

3 (40m 26s):
It’s really nice.

1 (40m 30s):
I love it. Well, thank you again for being here and if folks want to like connect more with you, obviously, like if there’s your TikTok, is there anywhere else that you would like to sort of point folks to, to learn more about what you’re up to or stay connected with you?

3 (40m 46s):
Yeah, I have my TikTok and then I have my Instagram of the same name, so Millie, so same name on TikTok as on Instagram. And I can receive messages on Instagram and I’m happy to respond. Sometimes it takes a while because I’m tired, but you know, that’s a great place if anyone has any questions or just wants to let me know something. Yeah, my, my Instagram is there and my dms are open.

1 (41m 26s):
Awesome. Well thank you so much again. This has been so great. Thank you. We are so excited to finally have some merch for you. We put together an online shop@store.ology.com that is full of fabulous products to help you show off the pride that you have in your faith, in your sexuality, in your gender, in being an ally. And not only will you look fabulous doing it, but you will also help to support this podcast and keep it all in the air. You can go to store dot queer theology.com to check out all of the new merch and use promo code podcast to get 10% off your first order.

1 (42m 8s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

2 (42m 17s):
To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

1 (42m 25s):
We’ll see you next week.

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Beautiful Anonymous (43m 12s):
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(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. I’m so, so, so excited. Dr. Christina Cleveland PhD is a social psychologist, public theologian, author and activist. She’s the founder and director of the Center for Justice and Renewal, as well as its sister organization, sacred Folk, which creates resources to stimulate people’s spiritual imaginations and support their journeys toward liberation.

(50s):
An award-winning researcher and, and former professor at Duke University’s Divinity School. Christina lives in Boston, Massachusetts. Today I’m this episode Father Shea talks with her about her extensive work as well as her book, God as a Black woman looking at her pilgrimages to visit black Madonna’s. And so much insight in this one. I cannot wait for you to, to hear it. Enjoy. Well, we’ve already read your fancy bio, but I would love to start by asking, like if we were at a cocktail party, a fun cocktail party, and someone asked you to introduce yourself and what you do, how do you, how do you explain yourself and your work?

(1m 33s):
I usually tell people that I’m an artist who stimulates spiritual imaginations, and I’m someone that curates and gathers adventurous people who wanna go beyond what they think they know about spirituality. Hmm. That’s amazing. I love that. I, I am obsessed with your book. It’s so, so, so good. And one of the things that I, I was really struck by is like, you write so beautifully about finding God in the particularity of your and her experience as a black woman. And then you also open that up to sharing how finding that is not just for black women.

(2m 17s):
And I, and I think so often people assume that theologies from the particulars are just for people who share those particulars. And I wonder if you can start out by sharing a little bit more about why it matters that people who aren’t from those particulars learn from seeing God in this way. Hmm. Well, I can tell you why it’s been so important for me to learn from theological viewpoints that are really different from my own. I don’t think I could have gone on my journey, to be honest, without Palestinian liberation theology about seven or eight years ago when I was first getting connected to liberation theology.

(2m 59s):
Of course, I was reading the Black Liberation theologians, both male and female and non-binary. But it was so powerful for me to hear, like read Nama Te, who was talking about Samson as the first suicide bomber. And just that just stimulated my, my, my imagination beyond my experience and just really gave me license to go beyond my experience and to find God outside of my experience. And for, and that that particular example, you know, to see the humanity and the divinity and the sacredness of suicide bombers like that. I mean, that’s why we read theologies outside of our background, is so that we can see the sacredness in other people and, and start to fight for that sacredness too, and, and not just have the people from that background be fighting for that sacredness.

(3m 55s):
So I would say that it’s been a huge part of my journey to be nourished by theologies outside of my experience. But also, I mean, I think the Black Madonna, which so much of my spirituality is centered around these days, she’s so, she’s so expansive. You know, in my book I pit her against white male God, who is kind of like, you know, I talk about his teeny tiny circle, his teeny tiny terrifying circle of acceptability, right? It’s like a pinpoint, like hardly anybody gets to be part of it. He’s like the king of exclusivity and she’s like the queen of inclusivity. But I feel like that language is not ideal.

(4m 36s):
’cause inclusivity is so weak, weakened, but I think she’s like the queen of equity, like the people that have been cast aside, she says, be front and center, very similar to Jesus who said, in the first shall be last and the last, she’ll be first. But people don’t really take that seriously in general, don’t really take that seriously. But I think if we get behind her, her, her real movement of literally taking the first and putting them at the foot at the table and literally taking the last and putting at the, at the foot, at the front, the head, then anyone who’s not black, who has privilege, at least in western society for being non-black, will have to start to see that blackness is part of the sacredness of, and the, the, I love the way James s says, he says, blackness is the image of God in black people, right?

(5m 35s):
And so if we’re starting to read like these theologies out, like so a non-black person reading the, reading my book, or reading a, a black liberation theologian or a womanist can start to see that, that image of God in the world, in the form of blackness, and that’s healing to everyone who’s been poisoned by anti-blackness, black people, white people, Asian, whatever race you are, we’ve been poisoned. And it’s so healing and beautiful and, and it’s shocking. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. You this, you have this amazing quote where you say, regardless of our racial and gender identity is the liberating sacred black feminine, personally invites each of us to examine which God we have been implicitly taught to worship, and how that God has shaped us a God who is exclusively white and male, or even predominantly white and male is never going to be safe because he cannot affirm the sacredness of non-white and non-male people.

(6m 34s):
And I just, I, I think that’s, that’s such an important thing for people to hear, and I think it’s probably also shocking for some people to hear. I’m, I’m wondering how that quote in particular has resonated with folks and, and how you, how you got to that, that place. I know that that’s a really big question and your book is all about that journey, but like Yeah. For folks that, you know, to entice them to read the book. Yeah. You know, I think, I think a lot of people struggle with that idea. I, I would affirm what you’re saying. I think we have been, many of us have been discipled to think that spirituality should be easy and comfortable and feel good.

(7m 23s):
I remember reading books when I was like, back in the evangelical world, you know, growing up like, you know, go on a coffee date with Jesus or something like that. You know, just like kind of snugly cute image, which is it, which was interesting because the Jesus that was being presented to me was actually quite scary and not snugly and warm, but there was this, there was also this, this other flavor of, I would say, white patriarchy that’s like, this should be easy all the time. And that way you never really go on a real spiritual adventure, which is not easy all the time, but is always fulfilling. And so, you know, I think people really struggle with that, the challenge of that.

(8m 6s):
But then I’d also say, I think people really struggle with divesting from their allegiance to white male God, because for many people, white male, God has, and the whole idea behind white male God has propped them up and given them resources and power that they otherwise wouldn’t have. And to actually practice repar, the reparations of being aligned with the interests of the sacred black feminine is costly. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. And it’s, so, it’s such important work.

(8m 47s):
And I, I think one of the things that I’m, I’ve been really struck by in, in reading your book is, and you talked about this earlier, is, is that, you know, that tiny little pinprick of, of acceptability is that like investing in these structures of, of white male God are like, not actually serving any of us, but we have this idea that if we just get in that somehow we’ll be okay. And, and we see this a lot in the like queer and trans movement too, of, of this push for respectability. I I’m wondering if you can share a little bit about how you have learned or been learning to divest yourself from this idea of respectability and, and what that has done for you.

(9m 37s):
Yeah. You know, it’s so interesting because the, my book ends, the, the pilgrimage part that I write about in my book ends in late 2018. And so, you know, that’s almost four years ago now. And so it’s so funny ’cause I’m thinking, oh, a lot has changed since then that I didn’t write about in the book. One of the things was, I remember the last like, walk on my pilgrimage, maybe I was gonna go home a couple days later. I was thinking to myself, I could have this beautiful, transformative experience. I could even write about this beautiful, transformative experience. But if I don’t go home and integrate this into my everyday life, this is kind of not gonna do, this is not gonna liberate me.

(10m 23s):
And so I, I was already starting to think, if I go back to this, so I’ve had this experience where I have profoundly encountered this idea that God is in fact a black woman. So how does that change my life? Okay, well, that means that if God is really truly a black woman, then there’s no way she wants me to work in this dehumanizing academic position that I’m in. If God is truly a black woman, that if I leave this position somehow, somewhere, there will be a, there will be resources for me. I don’t know how, I don’t know where, but I can’t believe in a God that knows my experience and relates to my experience and wouldn’t in some way provide for me to be free.

(11m 12s):
If God is truly a black woman, then how is that gonna be reflected in my finances and what sorts of resources I’m keeping for myself assist black women that could be used in to support the lives of trans black women. And so it’s not hard to just follow that logic and really kind of like, put your money where your mouth is, or put your energy where your mouth is. And to me, every single time I’ve asked that question, I’ve had a choice. Like, do I want to go back into the safety of white male God, because I can do okay in that world.

(11m 52s):
It’s not healthy and it’s not free, but my bills are paid and I have health insurance and things like that, or I can keep getting free. And I kind of, I’ve thought ever since my pilgrimage, I’ve thought a lot about Harriet Tubman, my ancestor, because I imagine that she, you know, she was born on a plantation. She was raised on a plantation. She was taught this is the best life can possibly get, get for you. The, the best you can do is try to survive in this space. And then some days she just woke up and was like, I’m too sacred for this. And started to plan to leave. But we have no idea what happened in that time when she was like, how did she convince herself that it’s liberation’s worth it?

(12m 42s):
Even in this landscape off the plantation where she doesn’t know the language, she doesn’t have transferable skills, she doesn’t know who’s trustworthy and who’s not. She doesn’t know the geography. And that’s what we’re all dealing with when we decide to take a step towards abundance. And she, she wrote, she talks a lot about in her, in her writings and her speeches about the North Star. So she found this spiritual resource that she could look to. And that’s kind of what I do with the Black Madonna. You know, it’s like, I, I have them all over my house and sometimes people wonder why I even have a plastic black Madonna in my shower. And, and people always wonder why. And I say, well, I need to be reminded all the time that I’m sacred too, And that I can say no to this opportunity, or I can actually have a frank conversation in this relationship.

(13m 33s):
Or I can give sacrificially in this way, even though it scares me because I’m sacred too. And if I’m sacred too, then just like Jesus said, if I clothe the sparrows, I’m gonna clothe you too. Live your life. Don’t be afraid. You know, but I, it’s like I’m afraid. So I need to be reminded all the time that, that I don’t have to be afraid, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I, I wanna dive more into the Black Madonna and your pilgrimage in just a second, but one more question on, on this topic, because you talked about how much of your work at one point was trying to convince people to see your humanity and how exhausting that was, and how it was all about like, hoping that they would one day give a shit about you.

(14m 24s):
And I, I think that for many of our listeners who, who are in that space in their churches trying to convince churches to care about trans people or queer folks and who are also grappling with the reality that, like, especially for trans folks, we’re a very small percentage of the population. So at some point we do need cis folks to care in order to change politics. Like how do you, how do you grapple with, with that space of not wanting to be in a position to ask people to see your humanity, but also needing to figure out like how to, how to get things to change. Yeah. Yeah. This is another area where I think Palestinian theology was really trans transformative for me.

(15m 8s):
’cause they, they really take seriously the mustard seed in the Bible. And so I, so, you know, I, and I can’t speak from personal experience because I’m cis and what’s the percentage of trans folks? Less than 1%. Yeah. Best, best we can get It. And, you know, I, as a black person, I’m, I’m like 14% of the population in the United States, so it’s not the same thing. That said, one of the things that I have learned is, well, I think when I was trying to convince, and it was white people that I was trying to convince of my humanity, I had this idea that was like a white male God infused idea that like, white people are like a secret weapon.

(15m 55s):
And if you get white people to care, then like people then, like people will care. And Emma Martin Luther King had that same approach until he didn’t, and then he got killed, right? But like early on he thought, we need to convince, you know, the good, the so-called good white person. And he thought, you know, it really has to be a moral majority. And Palestinian theologians would disagree. They really would. They would say, you don’t need a lot people, you just need the right people. And to me, that’s been a practice of surrender to abundance. Because now I can ask the question, do I need to put myself out there in one of those tough conversations?

(16m 39s):
Right. Because I really, if I don’t say it, it won’t get said, if these people don’t get on board, get, don’t get on board and funded it, it won’t get funded. Right. Or so that, which would be a fearful reason for entering into that conversation versus like an abundant reason for entering outta that conversation, which is, we have what we need cosmically, I’m gonna invite this person for their good to participate in what’s happening here. Hmm. And so it’s, it’s not necessarily different words, but the abundant way is a lot less resource consuming, I’ll tell you that.

(17m 22s):
And, and I can, I find that I can be a lot wiser in who and when I engage those conversations, it’s not that, oh my gosh, I have to have every, you know, I, I have to, I have to, I have to, that urgency is gone to a certain extent. And you know, I’ll say as a cis person, that’s all the more reason why cis people need to be doing this work. ’cause it’s not trans people’s responsibility. Right. Yeah. That’s a, that’s a really helpful Think people need to care about race because it’s not black people’s responsibility. Right? Right. Yeah. If, if anyone’s having tough conversations in my church community around, around transness, I should be the one taking any hits or whatever, you know?

(18m 10s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s a really helpful reframe. Thank you for that. Sure. I, so I would love to talk about the black Madonna and the sacred black feminine. And I, I wonder if you can start by saying, you know, for, for folks who maybe grew up in more evangelical or Protestant traditions for whom both the idea of Madonna’s and this pilgrimage to see these figures might be foreign. Can, can you just talk a little bit about how you found this and also like how you made that shift? Because I also know that you grew up in, in a Protestant circle for whom this was not part of, of your growing up. Yeah. I, so I, yeah.

(18m 51s):
I grew up in a, in a community where Catholicism was satanic basically. Right. And so we weren’t even really allowed to interact with Catholics. Yeah. It’s so sad to me that people don’t know more about the Black Madonna. It’s a conspiracy. It’s like a patriarchal conspiracy. And, and it’s interesting ’cause a lot, most Catholics don’t even know about the Black Madonna, but she’s te okay, so what do I wanna say about this? ’cause it’s so big. How did I find her? I was desperate. I had been desperate. I, I was knowingly desperate beginning in 2012 when Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman.

(19m 37s):
At that time, I was really rooted in the evangelical world doing a lot of speaking and writing. And it was the first real sort of national experience that I had where these people who claimed I was a part of their family and loved me, could not hear me or black people. And that was the first time I experienced that as an adult. And so that’s when I started to really question the validity of white Jesus. ’cause I was pretty quickly able to make a connection between white Jesus and white, the, the sacredness of George Zimmerman and the reliability of George Zimmerman and the, the virtue of George Zimmerman versus Trayvon Martin.

(20m 22s):
But then in 2016, when Donald Trump was elected after having boasted about sexually assaulting white women, I was shocked. ’cause I knew, I know evangelicals don’t care about black people, but I certainly thought they cared about their precious white cis women. And I like to joke that like white femininity is like a fruit of the spirit in that world. You know? Like, it’s just like so valuable and used against everything. Right? And so I, I was really shocked. And that’s when I really started to, you know, grapple with the problem of male Jesus, exclusively male Jesus.

(21m 8s):
And so I was desperate. I just was like, where can I find any images of the divine that are black and female? Because we need, we need it all. And you know, Google didn’t, I mean, once you have the question, like I feel like the universe responds pretty quickly. So I found the Black Madonna that way, just searching. And I was shocked that, you know, she’s within Catholicism, although she’s obviously not owned by Catholicism. And I just went on a journey. But I will tell you, like, I feel like my biology changed the moment I saw a pic, a picture of her, like, and I exhaled in a way that I, I didn’t realize I had been holding my breath my whole life.

(21m 50s):
And I think I was like 35 at the time or something. So it was just one of those, like, you know, it’s interesting ’cause you know, you look back as a kid, I grew up, you know, I grew up so much in church, so I, and I’m, I’m very evangelical, so I’m like super biblically literate. And you know, I just, I think so much about like, these times when people would encounter Christ, Jesus Christ, and they would be like, changed this like weird boring interaction. You know, we’re fishing and we’re having breakfast afterwards, and then he’s there and then we’re changed and we just drop everything and follow him. You know? That’s how I felt when I met the Black Madonna.

(22m 33s):
Yeah. And so then you went on this, this pilgrimage, this journey to visit all of these, these different statues. What, what was that experience like for you? And, and what, why did you feel like you needed to, to go and, and be in person with these Figures? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I did about a year and a half of book research, and I did some, like e-course and stuff like that. There’s something so embodied about the Black Madonna, when you read the stories across the millennia about her, people would often pilgrimage and walk.

(23m 15s):
But then, and I noticed this as soon as I became devoted to the Black Madonna, I ordered off Etsy, like a little black Madonna necklace. And I, I was, I hated my job. I was a professor at Duke Divinity School at the time, and I was terrified to even be in the building. ’cause there were just a lot, there was a lot going on that was really violent there. And I remember putting on my necklace every morning ritually and being like, okay, like, I’m not alone and going into work. And it got to the point where, you know, two weeks after this practice, I was halfway to work and had forgotten it. And I turned around and went back, which is like, so Catholic, right? Like, I’m not gonna Go throughout my Day without my talisman or my, you know, my ritual.

(23m 58s):
But I was, I was amazed at how quickly I went from like, like, you know, in the evangelical world, it was like, oh, I would just be, I would recite a, a a memory verse to myself or something, you know. But it was just interesting to notice how quickly I shifted to embodiment. And then I also realized, like, part of what she was inviting me into was connecting with her beyond my head, and not just the book research and not just the PowerPoint presentations. And then I wanted to walk because so many other people have walked across the centuries. And also I, you know, the more I learned about eco womanism and the ways in which black women’s bodies have been antagonized and, and our relationship to the earth has been antagonized, I really wanted to connect with my body and connect with the earth as a practice of connecting with her.

(24m 54s):
So I ended up going to her, it, it aligned quite well with a paid leave that I had from Duke too. So, you know, it was nice that they paid for the trip and I had the time off to go do it. Yeah. But I went to go visit 18 different black Madonnas on that first pilgrimage, and I walked a little over 400 miles and it took about five weeks. I, I love that. I, I love your comments about being embodied because I, I think for so many of us who grew up in evangelical traditions, right? That sense of, of disembodied spirit or head knowledge is so pervasive.

(25m 35s):
And I think I, I know as a trans person, like I really called that holy, right? That disconnect from my body was like, well, I’m just like extra holy because I hate my body and I don’t wanna be in it. And, and so I’ve loved reading your book and, and how this practice really like Reem embodied you in a lot of ways, ways. Can you talk more about like how, how that has been transformative? This this, the Reem embodiment? Yeah. Well, nowadays I see my own body as the primary source of wisdom and guidance.

(26m 16s):
So I start with myself, and this is huge for me because I grew up in both a home and a church community where wisdom’s outside of you and you better make sure all the people whose opinions you value agree with whatever it is you think about anything or whatever decision you’re hoping to make. And so that’s been a huge shift for me. Another way is it’s forced me to slow down and to realize that, you know, one of, one of the people who’s taught me a lot about contemplative walking is like, you know, the body was designed to move at three miles per hour.

(26m 58s):
Like, we move a lot faster than that for lots of reasons because of technology and in part because of technology and capitalism. But it was really designed to, so it’s really forced me to rethink, redefine what it means to be effective, what it means to be efficient, redefine time, redefine even like the journey. You know, I, if I was telling my editor once we finalized the book and it was off to the press, if I’d had time for one more major revision, I would have made the book way funnier, because I’m funnier than the book suggest. And also because it was, it was funny.

(27m 41s):
Like, it was, it was hilarious to be out on this pilgrimage thinking about the absurdity of white male God, and how white male god’s always rushing you and always making you feel like you’re not doing enough, fast enough and big enough. And to actually be with these black Madonnas that have been their, I mean, like, there’s this one black Madonna that I went to go see who’s not in the book. ’cause you know, I couldn’t talk about all of them in the book. She’s the black Madonna of Lapu, and she has been there for at, since at least the year 400, but she’s probably Isis or Bel.

(28m 25s):
So she’s deeper than that because, than than the year 400. But she’s so powerful and so many people in that region pilgrimage to her to be, to touch her, to pray with her, to hear, have her listen to them. And the Catholic church came gentrified, the place turned her into, you know, built, tore down the temple that people had been worshiping the ancient goddess on, built a ca, you know, a Catholic cathedral on top of it. And she’s basically just become the queen of the cathedral. But that place where she is is the start of the Camino in France.

(29m 9s):
And so she, like, she’s been blessing and interacting with pilgrims for like over 1500 years with it, with no fanfare, with like, no headlines, but imagine like how people have been transformed on that pilgrimage and have gone out and done these amazing things that have changed the world, right? And she hasn’t gotten any other credit for it. And I feel like that’s what the invitation is. It’s so anti-white male god, right? She’s like, okay, you wanna change my name? Fine, labels don’t matter. Okay, you wanna change the trappings around my house? Fine, that doesn’t matter.

(29m 49s):
I’m gonna keep here. I’m gonna stay here quietly, but powerfully doing my work, transforming the world. And so when I think about her, I think size, efficiency, effectiveness, bottom lines, all those things don’t matter when you have access to a mystical power. And it’s like, I can’t, I can’t imagine there’s a more influential walking pilgrimage place than where she is. You know? Like, and like she’s, yet no one even knows. Yeah. That’s Amazing. Everyone starts there though. It starts right there at her cathedral. It’s so cool.

(30m 30s):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And it’s funny because when I first said I was gonna go on a walking pilgrimage in France, and people asked me if I was gonna do the Camino, and I was like super haughty about it. I’m like, man, the Camino’s in Spain. In Spain and plus there’s no black Madonnas. Ha, i I was completely Wrong. I wanted to be just like super unique. Actually, I, yeah, I was kind of on the Camino that one time when I went to visit her. I’m basic just like everybody Else, you Know, I’m, I’m wondering what you would say to someone who, who heard you talk about trusting yourself as this, as the first source of wisdom, who felt a little bit of panic about like, oh, I, I can’t, I can’t trust, I, I can’t trust my body, I can’t trust myself.

(31m 22s):
What would you say to them? I’d have a lot of compassion. I felt the same way. The fir, I didn’t put this in the, I wrote the story, but it didn’t make it into the book. I, the first Bible verse I learned when I was three years old, the first one my mom thought it was important to teach us was Jeremiah 17, nine. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it. And so at three years old when my little brain was forming, I was learning that the last person I should trust is me. And I remember having to do a whole year of therapy with just a one therapist who’s highly specialized in evangelical spiritual abuse, just to get past that.

(32m 12s):
Mm. So I get it. It is terrifying. It’s absolutely terrifying to have to, to, to even, to even fathom seeing yourself as sacred and not just sacred as in like, I’m worthy of someone dying for me, but sacred as in the divine wisdom that’s in the world is in me too. And yeah, it’s so scary and part, and part of the reason why it’s really scary is because for many of us, the body often feels like an inhospitable place because it carries so much trauma. And so I would say, you know, I, I’d have a lot of compassion for someone who feels a little freaked out by that, by that idea.

(32m 59s):
And I would also say, go really gently and kindly with yourself and try to get some support from a trauma informed person. Because there’s a reason why we hate our bodies and are afraid of our bodies and feel like our, we’re like, we’re estranged from our bodies. There’s a lot of trauma in there. And it, and oftentimes when we do look inward, it’s too scary to do it alone or we move too quickly. And so, I mean, there’s so much fear in my body. There’s so much insecurity in my body, and it’s only through years, several years now, I that I’ve been doing a body like body wisdom practice pretty intensely, you know, pretty intentionally that I’m starting to able to be with that and allow it to be there along with the other things.

(33m 50s):
And, but we’re taught the, we’re taught to not do that, and we’re taught to fear that. Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine, you know, I, I know in my, my story, you know, for people who read the book, I, I did experience quite a bit of body dysmorphia as someone with an eating disorder. I know a lot of my trans friends have had body dysmorphia for that reason, or for other reasons too. So that’s, that’s yet another reason to actual, like, harmful perceptions of our bodies or hate actual hatred of our bodies, you know, it’s very scary. So find someone who’s really loving and trauma-informed to be there with you.

(34m 34s):
Yeah. Yeah. You posted on social media on Instagram about God being a black trans woman, and then that created a kerfuffle and, and then you posted about how that kind of pushback made you even more convinced. I, I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about both the post and, And what that’s Yeah. So I got the pushback from a line in my book towards the end of my book. I just, you know, I’m talking about how if we really want to practice the sacred black feminine, not just, you know, claim some allegiance to her, we have to get into formation around her, what, what she values.

(35m 19s):
You know, this, this journey towards the Black Madonna has really expanded my own theological understandings of God. And I really feel like the Black Madonna is inviting, is inviting me into, okay, so let me, let me go back. So in the book, I talk a lot about how like white male, God has set up this pecking order, and she comes and completely disrupts that saying that the least of these, the black women are actually the ones who are sacred. And in doing so, she makes all of us sacred, right? But I’m a cis black, light skinned, upwardly mobile, formerly educated black woman.

(36m 7s):
I am not the least of these amongst black women. The least of these amongst black women is black trans women who have an average life expectancy of 34 years and are on average gonna make less than $10,000 a year in income. And so when the Black Madonna says, I’m completely reordering the pecking order per se, it means putting black trans women at top on the top. So when I say if God’s a black woman, then she must be a black trans woman. Yeah, I was surprised. I, I shouldn’t have been because my trans friends have talked to me about turfs, but I was surprised by how many people turfs were really upset that I included black trans women in my discussion of God as a black woman.

(36m 60s):
And it did make me more, more convinced because that, that behavior suggests that turfs don’t think that trans black women are sacred. And so that made me even more convinced that trans black women are sacred, and that, that the work that I do as a cis woman should be in alignment with that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I, I also love, I, I think your book is such a great example of how easy it is to be inclusive. And, and so subtly too of, of there was a, a line about like, I know not all women menstruate and not all people who menstruate are women.

(37m 43s):
And I was like, it, it’s not, it’s not that hard to include that and to just make space. I just, I felt so great, grateful for the ways in which your book made space for trans identities. And I just wanted to say thank you for that and thank you for providing a, a model, an example of, of how to do that well for cis folks. Really Appreciate that. Thank you. I’m, I, I asked a, a black trans man to help me edit it and, and consult on that. And also a non-binary Latinx person because I knew there’s so much danger in writing a book called God as a Black woman. And I, I mean, I’m sure there are things out there that, you know, a year from now I’ll be more aware and be like, oh, like, you know, like those things.

(38m 29s):
But it was, it was definitely a group effort. Yeah. Where, where, what are you working on now? What is kind of the new horizon that you’re excited about and, and exploring? So, so soon? Soon, I think in like two weeks, and I don’t know when this podcast is gonna air, we’re start, we’re launching a new e-course called Liberating the Mind Body Spirit from Capitalism. So I am like deep in thinking and moving and writing and thinking about getting free from the fear and connecting with abundance. So that’s really fun. I am also working on an e-course that we’re doing this winter starting in January called Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Mahalia Jackson.

(39m 18s):
Cool. And that’s gonna be timeless lessons on anti-racist leadership. So I’m, I am, it’s, I, I taught a class at Duke in, that was actually, that actually met in the prisons in North Carolina. One at Butner Prison, which is a federal prison. And the other one is Central, which was a state prison. And so half my students were incarcerated men and the other half were male Duke students, and that one was on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. So I, I’m, I’m pretty connected to their stories. So right now I’m spending a lot of time connecting with Mahalia Jackson story, and that’s been really neat. And I’m am starting to work on a book proposal, so we’ll see another, not another book. ’cause I feel like this book is really about me, but I’m gonna write a book about the Black Madonna.

(40m 3s):
Love it. That’ll be her book. Yeah. Not, not as much of my story, but hopefully a lot of other people’s stories as told through her. So yeah. It’s, there’s always, yeah. And my team members know, just be careful. ’cause the vision changes all the time. Right. Just be flexible. If, if people wanted to find you or follow your work, what, what’s the best place for them to connect with you? Patreon is where I’m doing most of my work. I’m pretty flaky on socials. I stopped intentionally posting on socials and now I just post whenever I feel like it, which can be a lot or none, depending on how I feel.

(40m 50s):
So Patreon’s a great way, especially if you’re white and you wanna support somebody who’s not white. And, but you can also sign up. I mean, if you, if anyone goes to my website, christina cleveland.com, there’s so many ways to get involved. We also have a free newsletter that’s like really luxurious. Like, it’s just like we designed it so you Can just Slowly scroll and see beautiful images and insightful quotes and it feels like a bath. It really does. It feels like a really good spiritual bath. Yeah. Those are some of the best ways. Very cool. And we love to end by asking everyone, what’s one thing that’s been bringing you joy lately?

(41m 33s):
Well, it’s starting to be fall here again. And last fall while I was in France, I got connected to this type of fabric called raccoon wool. And it changed my life. It’s like cashmere on steroids. Like it’s so soft and amazing and warm and it’s literally, they literally just sheer raccoons. So it’s sustainable. That’s Amazing. It’s like Sheep wool, but it’s raccoons. So there are no raccoons killed in the making of my raccoon wool sweater.

(42m 14s):
But I do have a 100% raccoon wool sweater. That is amazing. And I bought it in Paris last year, so That’s so cool. Bringing me a lot of joy. ’cause it’s nice to snuggle up. Yeah. Maybe not the most, you know, deep thing. It’s not. No, I love that. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, thank you so, so much for, for being a part of this podcast and for taking the time to have this conversation. Just really appreciate it. Thank you. I’m honored to be invited. Thank you again to Dr. Cleveland for being on the show. We have another interview coming to you next week, rabbi Denise Egger, my rabbi here in Los Angeles, who I’ve learned from so much and new interviews every week long through January.

(43m 4s):
Just as a reminder, supporters on Patreon get early access to episodes and that help to keep this podcast on the air. So if you are enjoying this, you’re excited for it, you want even more of it, patreon.com/queer theology to support the show. You can also support the show just by leaving a review. Every review helps us get the word out and to combat the haters out there who want to bring us down just because we’re queer. So thank you for being here and we’ll see you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LG BT Q Christians, and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com.

(43m 45s):
You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

The post God is a Black Woman with Dr. Christena Cleveland appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• Miryam’s upbringing in a modern Orthodox community shaped her understanding of faith and queerness.
• The importance of community in navigating LGBTQ identity within Orthodox spaces.
• A-Shell was founded to create supportive environments for LGBTQ Jews and their families.
• Coming out is a continuous journey, especially in Orthodox contexts.
• Family acceptance can take time, but patience is key.
• Creating inclusive rituals is essential for LGBTQ individuals in Orthodox life.
• The future of queer Judaism holds hope for greater acceptance and understanding.
• Obligation to care for one another is a core value in Jewish tradition.
• Retreats provide a safe space for LGBTQ individuals to connect and share experiences.
• Communication and connection are vital for bridging gaps between communities.

Chapters

(04:38) Growing Up Orthodox and LGBTQ: A Personal Narrative

(08:58) The Formation of A-Shell: Building Community

(13:31) Navigating Dual Identities: Coming Out Experiences

(18:05) Creating Inclusive Spaces: The Work of A-Shell

(22:31) Ritual Innovations in the Orthodox Community

(24:11) Navigating Orthodox Jewish Law and Queer Identity

(27:36) The Intersection of Gender and Ritual

(29:26) Faith and Acceptance in Queer Identity

(32:27) Challenges of Inclusivity in Orthodox Communities

(34:24) Retreats: A Safe Space for LGBTQ+ Jews

(37:12) The Attraction of Orthodoxy for Queer Individuals

(40:57) The Power of Obligation and Community Support

Resources:

• Learn more about Miryam and Eshel here: www.eshelonline.org 
• Follow Eshel on IG @eshelonline
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here Today on the podcast, we have a really special interview. Miriam Kabakov is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGBTQ plus individuals in the Orthodox world. Miriam is executive director and co-founder of Elle, a national organization that supports LGBTQ plus Orthodox individuals and their families.

(53s):
Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miriam was the New York and National Program Director of Voda, The Jewish Service Corps, director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps. Miriam received her MSW from the World’s Wilder School of Social Work. She also received a certificate in fundraising from the University of St. Thomas, and a certificate in program evaluation from the University of Washington, and has a background in informal Jewish education from Brandeis University. She founded the New York Orthodox, a support group for lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of Keep Your Wives Away From Them, Orthodox Women Unorthodox Desires published by North Atlantic Books in May of 2010.

(1m 37s):
A collection of writings are the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award. On a more personal note, I’m so excited to share this interview with you because I’ve seen up close and personal lives that have been transformed by a Shell. I just can’t help but keep coming back to the idea that we are stronger together and Miriam is working to make that a reality. Miriam, thanks so much for being here on the podcast with us. I’m, it’s really excited to talk to you. I got an impressive list of accomplishments and things that you’ve done both for the Jewish world and the LGBT community, And I, I know our audience is gonna be in for a treat with you today.

(2m 17s):
Thank you so much, Ryan. It’s really an honor to be here. I wanna, before we dive into sort of present day Miran and the work that you’re doing with Michelle, can you just take us back to a more like child, a younger version of yourself, and that’s sort of like, what was it like for you growing up? How does religion and queerness intersect for you and when did you start to become aware that maybe there was a rift or maybe people told you there should be a rift there? What, like, what was that, what was that upbringing like for you? Sure. I can go there. I go there a lot because calls that we get on our warm line always often make me think of myself as, you know, know a younger person, a younger version of health.

(3m 2s):
And it’s always remarkable to me that these many decades later people are still saying the things that I said when I was younger. And that is, I am the only one. I must be the only one. This is crazy. How could God have made me this way? You know, what I know about our tradition and our religion and what’s supposed to be the right way to live doesn’t really jive with how I’m feeling inside. Now, I grew up in a modern Orthodox community going to modern Orthodox Day school, and that means that meant to me that the modern world and orthodoxy had a way of coexisting, and that everything we learned, sort of both, both of those things had to make sense of each other in order to have that like understanding and combination of the modern world and the ancient world and our faith and science.

(3m 59s):
And so the way I grew up was that this is gonna be okay, but I didn’t know how. And what I mean is that what we would learn in school was like, how do you apply ancient texts and ancient laws and customs to modern day problems? So my father was an A doctor in New York City, and he used to take me as a young person to these medical ethics meetings with, you know, the Fed Jewish Federation in New York. And you know, and they would ask all of these really interesting questions, you know, about like death and dying and, you know, how do we deal with that when we know that we’re not really allowed to like assist somebody who’s dying to die?

(4m 44s):
Like, that’s not our place. This is just one example and what is our role in that moment when, you know, as a, as a modern day person, you know, that the person is suffering. So like they would grapple a lot with these really difficult questions. So I knew that there was gonna be a way, some way somehow for me to work this out. So I grew up just really being deeply steeped in my faith. I was very religious And I was more religious than my parents. As I grew and stuff, my orthodoxy even stronger and stronger And I really, really loved it. Like it was everything to me. It gave me my sense of myself, it gave me a sense of purpose in life. And, and then I was realizing that, that I’m attracted to the, the girls in the class, not so much to the boys and what’s gonna happen to me.

(5m 30s):
And I gave myself a certain number of years to grow out of it and to pray really hard and hopefully I, I would get over it. And that didn’t really happen. So I did other things. Like I saw some therapists and some rabbis who kind of gave me like some magic potion or like some prayers to say or things to do in my life to bring out the side of me that would be interested in being with a man. And none of those things worked for the long run. And then I sort of happened into a group of women who were also Orthodox and L-G-B-T-Q.

(6m 11s):
And it was then that I realized like, really truly I am not alone. And that if some people are making this work, I can make it work too. And I have to make it work because God loves me, God created me this way, obviously I’m not changing. So like, what am I supposed to do? Be a miserable human being. And in Judaism you’re not allowed to be a miserable human being that’s like an an Antifa thing. Like you just, you know, worship God enjoy. It’s like we have a commandment to be happy. And so that was what I believed And I believed that it was gonna work itself out somehow.

(6m 52s):
And the only real way that it did work itself out for me was in community. Like finding other people who are like me and you know, learning to celebrate together with this new community. And so going into the work that I do at ahl, I brought all of that with me and that the first thing that we actually did was have a retreat. So we didn’t actually know how many people would come and we basically, the first year we did it was we sold out the retreat center. We had about 115 or 20 people and we were like, this is the best thing ever and this is going to have to continue. And so we just, we’ve hit the 15th year, we’re we’re keeping on, keeping on, and after three years we added another retreat for parents of LGBT LGBTQ people, Orthodox parents.

(7m 43s):
And for them as well, it is a parallel process between their children and themselves. Just like their kid couldn’t tell them the parents or anyone else in the Orthodox community, the parents feel that they can’t tell anybody in their community. So when they come to this retreat, it’s like the very first time that they can actually speak their truth about their child. And they don’t have to fear when somebody says, how is, how is your kid doing? You know, are they married yet? Like no one is gonna ask that question. So it’s a very special environment. And yeah, so that’s a long way of saying like, where I came from and how I got here and why we do what we do at a Shell or how, you know, one of the things that we do, which is community building.

(8m 28s):
I love that. I love that. I recognize myself in that sort of like, I don’t know how it’s gonna work out, but it’s gonna work out. And I think, I don’t know where we got the hutzpah from, but like not everyone has that reaction I’m finding. And so I I’m glad that, I’m glad that you had that, that it’s true sense. Yeah, it’s true. Not everybody has that. And So I, I imagine that part of what led you to form a Shell was this sort of experience of community, but there’s a big leap from just sort of like seeing the power of community and wanting to be part of it to founding a whole organization. Like what was it that led you to make something formal around LGBT LGBTQ Jews or like Orthodox Jews? Good question. It was a long journey, I guess, into, you know, the moment when a group of us were able to like formulate this nonprofit and, but it was preceded by like over a decade of forming communities, mostly in New York City at the time.

(9m 26s):
I, my story started in Jerusalem with a group called The Orthodox of Jerusalem, and I love that. Yeah. And, and then I brought that group to New York, like I came to New York And I started doing that, doing, having that group there. And we met at the center on 13th Street, the LGBT LGBTQ center. And I didn’t, again, I didn’t think anyone would show up. And every single month new women came, people came back and it became a very big robust group. And alongside that, there were other groups forming one that became predominantly inhabited by men. And yeah, there were just like, you know, these informal underground groups.

(10m 10s):
And by underground, I mean we were not funded by the Jewish community by any means. We were not funded by the LGBT LGBTQ community and we were all volunteer led, you know, and just kind of, we were doing our own thing and feeling like this is like beginning to feel like a movement, like this is like beginning to feel substantial. And you know, at the same time, other organizations had started, obviously in New York and way before that also of, you know, for LGBT LGBTQ Jews or just LGBT LGBTQ people. But we didn’t really think that anyone would take us seriously because, you know, like why be Orthodox? That was always the question, well, why are you, why don’t you just leave?

(10m 52s):
What are you like, why, what are you beating your heads against the wall? And anybody who asked us that, like it was clear to me they had not been in the orthodox community, like fully immersed. ’cause you know, people don’t really get the, the what’s so compelling and what’s so compelling is that it’s like, it’s a kind of a thing that holds you in life. So you’re not floating alone in the ether. There’s a very strong sense of community and responsibility to each other. There’s a very deep sense of purpose and meaning, and it’s very, very hard to give that up. And so people would say like, yeah, why, why are you orthodox? So, so that’s why we didn’t really think people were gonna take us that seriously.

(11m 33s):
And then the Orthodox folks would be like, you can’t be LGBT LGBTQ. That’s just not a thing. They didn’t even use that word. We can’t be homosexual. That’s like not a thing. You know, if you are, it’s because you’re following your yate sharra, which means your evil inclination and you better get over it. You have to like conquer your ever evil inclination. You’re not working hard enough. So like there was no sympathy from anybody, You know, like We had it both, both sides. Like, you can’t be this and you can’t be that. So, and that was sort of when this, this feeling of movement, a movement was forming, you know? And that was when in 2010, a bunch of us got together and helped launch this project, and which later became a Shell Inc.

(12m 18s):
Which is our organization. And, and it, it like, its time had come and, you know, how did we get funding that was like the whole thing and that just like, it’s really the same, it was the same story, like nobody was gonna fund us. And then along came a, a minister, a woman who had started a, a project called Welcoming Congregations and she also has a family foundation and she heard about us and she reached out or somebody reached her and there was a match made. And that was our first substantial grant that could really like, help us launch our projects and, and start a shells.

(13m 1s):
So gratitude to the Christian community or for, to her and for the work that she did. And we modeled some of our projects after the work that she was doing also. So that’s how we got started. Very cool. You, well you took one of my follow up questions out of my mouth about sort of when coming out, like why, why state orthodox. But I’m curious also, just like on a more personal note, like what was your experience like coming out as an LGBT person in the orthodox world? And I don’t know if I love using this language, but as an or as an orthodox person in the LGBT community, those sort of like dual coming outs. Yeah. You know, coming out as LGBT LGBTQ in the orthodox world was a, a long haul and it’s was never like ever done.

(13m 45s):
It still doesn’t ever feel like it’s done because you always have to remind people or tell people, you know, I’m married to a woman, so like I have to like share that information in orthodox spaces, you know, and that’s not a given. Like it’s, you know, there’s an assumption of heterosexuality obviously. So, but it, but it was, for me it was the hardest part was with my family, obviously, you know, feeling accepted by my parents and then by my siblings who are, are very, very orthodox in different ways. And so it was painful.

(14m 25s):
It was like a very, it was a very big challenge and it was a struggle and it, it took years and it took years to, to heal from the pain of the rejection. And, you know, half my family not coming to my wedding was a huge slap in the face to me as somebody who was always there for them and their kids and their weddings and their happy times. And so thank God I’m in a wonderful place with my family now And I feel very blessed about that. I really, really do. But it was a very long journey. And so now when I hear parents talking about their kids or I hear LGBT LGBTQ people talking about, you know, their families are like, you know, their family members not showing up for them in the ways that they’ve shown up for their family members.

(15m 15s):
I always wanna say like, please just gimme their number. I wanna like share my, I wanna like make sure that you don’t have years of pain like I did and years of needing to heal. Like there’s an easy way out and that is like, let’s step up, you know, the, the love and the acceptance and the empathy, but that’s my fantasy. It doesn’t really work like that. Everybody has to go through their own understanding and their own journey with this. And so that’s just to say that, you know, the family piece is the hardest piece And I think that’s why we really focus on the family, the families that we work with. ’cause if the parents are okay, the kids are gonna be okay ultimately.

(15m 55s):
And so we also focus on obviously LGBT, LGBTQ people finding each other. We have a very big network of that for friendship, for companionship, for love, for whatever it is community and yeah. So, and then coming out in the LGBT LGBTQ world as an orthodox person, yeah, people would just look at me funny And maybe less so now, but yeah, it’s, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I can’t say I experienced the antisemitism that people are experiencing now.

(16m 35s):
It’s incredibly painful. What I’m seeing people go through right now. And you know, we did actually recently did a study of if LGBT LGBTQ Jews are feeling comfortable in queer only spaces like non-Jewish queer spaces and a large percentage of them are leaving those spaces. ’cause there’s just such intense antisemitism coming from, you know, the sentiment about against Israel and they have no place to go. ’cause they can’t go into their Orthodox communities, you know, for solace. They come to us, you know, so we’re, our community’s gotten stronger.

(17m 17s):
But anyway, I’m hoping that won’t last forever. Yeah. You know, you talk about the importance of that sort of family acceptance and also in your own life, it took your, it took some of your family a while to get there. And I’m wondering like what advice do you have for someone who’s, whatever their religious background might be, but then their parents are having, are not accepting at this moment. Like how do you balance, like not feeling like you’re banging your head against a wall and how do you like find the sort of joy in the moment while also also being able to sort of go on the, the journey with, with the parents and not have to feel like you have to cut them out entirely. Like how they, how do you, how do you, like, how do you like thread that needle?

(17m 59s):
Okay, so like for the parents, they love being together. It’s really beautiful. Like the parents have formed their own family almost. And, and they help each other a lot. There’s a lot of peer support out of this community. They came up with a saying that I use all the time that life is long and life is short or life is short and life is long. Really, like we all know what life is. Short means, like things feel like they’re going really quickly and all of a sudden you turn around and you’re 10 years older and like that. But, but life is long in that if you give people time and if you let them take their time, things will change.

(18m 40s):
So that, I repeat that like a mantra to every single parent I talk to when they’re, when they’re in distress, I’m like, you know, life is long. You’re gonna see the, the story isn’t over about your child. I do say the same thing to the LGBT LGBTQ people, but it’s harder, I think it’s harder for them to hear. ’cause you know, they’ve been living with this way longer than their parents have known about them. So they’re more impatient. Like they finally come out and they’re like, okay, I’m out. I’ve accepted myself. Yay. Where’s my party? And the parents are like completely devastated. So I say to them like, you’ve known for 15 years but your parents are just finding out now and you know what it’s like in the Orthodox community, so you need to be patient.

(19m 28s):
Yeah. So patience all around. Yeah. Can you say more about your work and like how much of it is focused on trying to get orthodox schuls or orthodox organizations to be, to change versus sort of supporting LGBT folks in figuring out what it means to live an Orthodox life or a Jewish life outside of, or alongside of those institutions or amongst their own sort of like found family created communities? Yes. All of it. All of it at once. Yeah. When we started we didn’t know like where to prioritize, where to begin.

(20m 12s):
And we started at coming at it in both ends, like giving community and in support to LGBT LGBTQ people and starting to chip away at the orthodox community’s understanding of what this is. And so we’ve never abandoned either end of that. Like our mission is to create an LGBT LGBTQ inclusive orthodoxy where people feel like they just belong, like they belonged yesterday before they came out. You know, that is like a seamless transition between before the day before when you were not out and the day you came out. And so that is a really, that’s a lot of work.

(20m 52s):
So we have this program called the Welcoming Shools project and it’s like a series of interviews with people with rabbis who lead congregations and just kind of talking with them. It’s a very non-judgmental conversation just to hear how they will have an LGBT LGBTQ person belong in their synagogue. And there’s a wide range of questions like rituals like that you’ll let them do or events like, you know, milestones you’ll let them celebrate and just generally feeling inclusive of them. And we’ve interviewed 300 of these synagogues so far.

(21m 34s):
We’re still doing, we do about 25 a year and it’s a beginning of a conversation and we also are able to assess like, is this a place we would send somebody? And everybody has a different, you know, ability to tolerate other people’s intolerance. Yeah. Some people will be fine going to one synagogue and some people will be fine, not be fine. So we have to sort of like make a match. So we work a lot on, on making orthodoxy in, you know, a friendly place. That’s really what we do. That’s our goal. But we can’t do that. We can’t just expect people LGBT, LGBTQ people to sit around and wait for that.

(22m 18s):
Right? Right. So we create, like, the way I see our Retreats is like, or our gatherings is like a, it’s like a, a utopian space. It’s like, this is how we want it to be and we give people a sense of how it will be and how it can be, and it, it, it also takes patience. But now in a few places we’re seeing that some of our members have gone and created LGBT LGBTQ like groups inside orthodox synagogues. Mm, wow. Right. Yeah. That was 10 years ago. No. And so that’s really wonderful and that kind of is a beautiful combination of the two things that we’ve been working on.

(23m 4s):
You know, strengthening people from within so that they have the belief that they don’t have to leave the community and the ability to advocate for themselves and then the orthodox community. Like recognizing you’re the same person that I knew yesterday and there’s no reason why you should have to go anywhere else. Yeah. Wow. What other sort of major important changes have happened that you’ve seen since you founded Elle? So I guess what we’ve seen is like, first of all, the statistics around people coming out in general in America show that people are coming out younger and younger, and this is true in the Orthodox community as well.

(23m 52s):
And that, and because like 10 or 15 years ago or 20 years ago, people were coming out like the average age was like 21. So like a kid would go to college or they would leave home and then they would come out. So the community didn’t really need to figure out what to do about it. But now teenagers are coming out in Orthodox Day schools. So some orthodox communities are really getting a real, like their own taste of what this means to really have that person still belong. And some of them are making choices to like, for, I’m not judging it honestly, sometimes it’s just a practical thing. They can’t make it work or you know, they’ll have a mass exodus, the parents will pull their kids out of the school and then the school will, you know, be damaged in a not good way.

(24m 39s):
And so like, you know, no judgment, but, but there are places that are able to hold the student and keep them. And so that’s different that there are queer orthodox kids staying inside of day schools. And that’s a good thing. We have built this incredible parent network and so there’s that for people, you know, that parents are not alone so they can figure out how to help their child. Yeah. And that we’ve given a space for queer Orthodox Jews to feel whole, like there is now this place. And so these things are all new things, I think.

(25m 21s):
And, and because of that, I think that a lot of the Orthodox communities are recognizing that this isn’t a choice, it is the nature of the human condition. As one of my favorite professors in my master’s program at Yeshiva University used to say Norman Linzer, he used to say, this is the nature of the human condition. And that’s a phrase that I say all the time like this buddy, like, this is not changing, this is the way God made us. So you have to figure out how to deal with us in a loving and accepting way.

(26m 2s):
Yeah. And I guess what what also is beginning to change is the ritual side. Like orthodox queer people want what straight Orthodox people want because that’s how they were raised. So they were like raised to expect certain things for themselves. You know, it’s, it’s very heteronormative, but like, I’ll say it anyway, like, you know, being married, getting married, having children, not for everybody obviously, but this is like the cultural norms of this community. So they expect that. And if they can’t have it, they’re like gonna make it, they’re gonna create it. So there’s a ton of new rituals coming out and they’re starting to be more clergy in the orthodox sphere that will help facilitate these rituals, which is really new.

(26m 52s):
And these are all great things. Yeah. Can you, can you say more about these, like the ritual aspect of it and, and also like, as a relatedly, I suppose that the Orthodox world obviously is, has a long way to go when it comes to LGBT stuff, but also there’s also different roles and rituals for men versus women in the orthodox world and a lot of, many of the rituals are, are, are gendered as well. And so like, like what is that, like, what are some new innovative ways folks are expanding orthodox ritual? Yeah, great question. It’s, it’s really new. So like the ways that I’ve seen the rituals so far are around marriage and you know, the language of those rituals is male and female.

(27m 42s):
And so people will create rituals that don’t feel like they are violating Orthodox Jewish law because orthodox queer Jews don’t want to violate Orthodox Jewish law. So they’ll do some alternatives like, but that feel like the same kind of a wedding, for example. So like when I came out And I invited my Orthodox relatives to my wedding, they were most appalled that it was gonna be a Jewish wedding. And I was like, what did you think I was gonna do like a Buddhist wedding?

(28m 23s):
Like what, what were you thinking would be good for me or comfortable for me? So, you know, my partner And I, it was, it felt like a very traditional wedding, But we took out some things that we knew that were not gonna jive with my understanding of orthodox law, but it felt orthodox. It felt like it, it like, it was a very traditional wedding. So that’s just to say that there’s a lot of like keeping true to what feel like what is the tradition without, with also keeping true to Jewish law. Okay. So that’s one thing in terms of other rituals, like there’s a ritual for a woman to af if she’s married and she is stopped menstruating, that she goes to a mikva, like a ritual bath.

(29m 14s):
And so, you know, we get this question a lot or you know, I’ve heard it many times like, what do two women do in that case? And do those same laws apply because, you know, men and a woman don’t, like they sleep in separate beds during her time of menstruation. So like, what do two women do? And so there are people that teach this, like how do you manage that? But not everybody thinks like, not every orthodox queer person thinks that that’s relevant because it’s only relevant to a man and a woman. So like, I guess what I’m Mm, Kind of boiling it down here to, like, some people will take the paradigm and plunk it right onto their lives and some people will say, no, you know what, I’m actually under the radar of this Jewish law because I’m not with the member sex.

(29m 60s):
Right. Yeah. And then I feel like maybe Brian, you were alluding to like bi the binary, were you, I mean, not necessarily though week, we can certainly go there. I was sort of like just thinking about the ways in which like gender, like, like rabbis and like who, like who lays to fill in and sort of obligations around like other sorts of like ritualistic obligations Yeah. That are like, that are, that are not necessarily queer issues, but that are like, have a gendered component as well that maybe like some trans folks are like, like how do I, how do I, how do I navigate haha around what are my obligations as a man or a woman or as a person with like this body part or that body part?

(30m 50s):
And are they just sort of like putting themselves into existing rituals? Are they creating like new rituals or Yeah, I I’m feeling like mostly in the orthodox sphere that we’re not necessarily creating new rituals. We’re trying to figure yeah. How to take on the rituals that we’re supposed to take on, but as you know, the person I am today, like how does this map onto this new reality of who I know I am and who I wanna be seen as. Yeah. So yeah, I think there’s more of that than creating our own rituals that are like radically different. Yeah. Yeah. And so can you say more about just like for yourself, like what does it mean to be like queer and religious?

(31m 34s):
Like what does that like look like for you on a, on a, on a sort of like a soul level, I suppose That I am, I’m accepting that I’m different than most people and that God is okay with that and it’s gotta love me anyway. Like I said earlier, you know, and I can’t radically change myself. Like I can’t perform, you know, heart or brain surgery on a metaphorical level. Like I just can’t and change the way that God made me. So, and, and my obligation is to rejoice and to like be a happy person as much as I can be and have faith, you know, even in the, in light of all of the horrible things that are going on in this world.

(32m 24s):
Like, yeah, I wake up every morning shaking my head like, really is this really going on? And so like, but to have faith is, is an important thing. And, and so yeah, just, you know, trying to figure out how to keep my faith and understand that I’m, I feel things differently than maybe my siblings or you know, people, some of the people around me. And that it’s also, it’s okay and it’s, it’s, this is the way God made me. So it’s like here I am, you know? That’s what it’s like for me. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m struck by the tension of wanting to sort of like stay within the bounds of Jewish law and also like wanting to have like the ritual that feels orthodox and wanting to change congregations, but also like, not change orthodoxy.

(33m 28s):
And maybe this is a, maybe we cut this question and it’s an off record, like, but like Holocaust, does it change slowly? Right? And so like, like in what, like when you imagine a, a queer Jewish future 500 years from now, like are the wedding ceremonies between two queer Jews still sort of like, oh, well we’re able to sort of like, fly under the radar and make this work in our own way? Or like, is there a world where queerness could be totally integrated into Haha Yeah, I mean, for sure this is, okay, this is what I learned as a younger person, right?

(34m 9s):
Like living my modern orthodox community that we’re not changing halakha, but halakha needs to address our lives as we see Like, that’s just halakha. It’s halakha means the way, so like, given you know who I am, what is the way I need to live, and just as ha you know, Halakha has addressed questions of, of the modern day, like in SI science or, you know, with disability or you know, just things that, you know, in the time of codifying Jewish law they didn’t know about. So like now what that we know, what is your answer today?

(34m 50s):
And so there are rabbis out there who are creating what’s called response literature. Like when you ask that question of do two women have to keep the laws of Nita, which is that the family purity laws around menstruation, which is what it’s called. And there are people addressing those questions. So like for us to be able to like live in halak way in the way of Jewish law. So, so I guess 500 years from now, it’s like, it’s like a non-issue and that we figured it out and just like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago when the rabbis, you know, talked about nine different genders, like recognizing genders, like it wasn’t a thing, it wasn’t a big deal, it was just like, this is the way it is and for whatever reason, you know, there’s tremendous, you know, fear and Yeah.

(35m 52s):
Understanding and you know, otherness about it and it shouldn’t be that way and it wasn’t that way. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways it, it sometimes in some areas feels like there’s a little bit of like going, I don’t know, like going backwards or fear of the unknown. Like, you know, you know, you have stories about, you know, a long time ago people being like, oh, this person was named one thing and then they left and then they came back and like, now they’re a man. And so like, clearly they’re gonna be a man and like if they, they can figure that out in like, I dunno, when it was like 1920s or 1880s Poland like surely we can figure it out in 2025 America. Right, right, right. The, the mystery of God’s world. That’s how I think. Yeah. Think about it.

(36m 33s):
And so what, like what are do what are some of the challenges that you see for why orthodox rabbis aren’t more inclusive? So I don’t wanna speak for them, but I guess there’s tremendous fear, I think of the unknown. And there’s also concerns about not being accepted amongst their peers. And if we let the gay people come to our synagogue, like, what will be next? You know, what, how will this structure fall apart or how will it affect us in a negative way?

(37m 15s):
Like, what bad things will happen after that? You know, things that are also unknown to us. And so I think that’s a lot of it is, I hate to say peer pressure, you know? Yeah. And a fear of what they don’t know. And I under I understand that. I mean, I get it, you know, when you don’t know something, it’s scary. Yeah. And so a lot of what we do is try to put a human face on, you know, queer people and just be like, let’s get us together in a room and talk to each other, talk to other, you know, and communication is the key. Listening is the key to getting into someone’s heart and that’s, that’s what we need to do.

(38m 2s):
’cause that’s what’s keeping us out. Yeah. I mean I, I think that’s why the work of your organization is so important because it’s, it’s, it’s like bringing all these people together And I don’t, it just feels like, like eventually there’ll be like a watershed moment. Like there’s a, there’ll be peer peer pressure from the opposite direction. Right? Right. Like it’s, it’s scary to be the only one saying it, but when you’re sort of one among many voices, like the connecting that you do both of LGBT Jews to one another, but parents and rabbis and the work, like, it helps to sort of make it a little bit easier to be brave. And so I yeah, I’m so glad that you’re doing this work. I know that Retreats and gatherings are like a big part of your work.

(38m 42s):
Like can you gimme a, can you give us a sample of like, what does it look like to go on a retreat as, as like an for one, maybe like for both sides, like an LGBT focused retreat or a parent focused retreat. Like what’s a day in the life of a retreat? Yeah, it’s a good question. ’cause we think a lot about that when we create them. And what we want is for the queer person to walk into this retreat. And it’s always on Shabbat. So it’s always like a Friday night, Saturday, Sunday so that they can experience exactly what they had when they grew up with one difference. And that one difference is that they’re fully accepted and it feels very magical. Like I was saying before, like a little slice of utopia, you know, Ghana, Eden, the Garden of Eden, like it’s utopian to like have that change like that, you know, Shabbat looks and feels and sounds exactly like it did in the spaces that you were a part of that didn’t accept you, but you can be exactly who you are and be surrounded by people who have the same kind of experience.

(39m 52s):
So it doesn’t look much different than your maybe average orthodox retreat over a weekend. But we do have a lot of sessions and we have a lot of speakers and people sharing their stories a lot. We have a lot of storytelling, a lot of, you know, people just sharing their backgrounds and where they came from to give and where they are now. And so like people have an inspiration for like how they can live their lives and, you know, and with the parents, same, like, it looks just like an Orthodox retreat and that’s what it is. It’s on Shabbat. We, you know, keep strict laws of keeping kosher and keeping Shabbat and, and all the joyousness of those that day.

(40m 38s):
Like we have it all. And yet the parents know that they can completely let their guard down with each other. And we do a lot of learning together and a lot of psychoeducation and education, you know, things that they need to know to parent their kid. So, yeah. Yeah. Do you have any coming up? Oh yeah, we have. Thanks for asking Brian. We have two, two of our Retreats. The LGBT LGBTQ retreat will be on March 13th to 15th, and the parent retreat will be April 30th to May 3rd, God willing of 2026.

(41m 20s):
And they’re usually on the east coast. So this one will be in Maryland and people can find out about it on our website. And registration isn’t open yet, but it will be, you know, in, in a few weeks or months. Awesome. And we’ll put links to all of that in the show notes of this podcast episode. And this, this next question might also be one that that has to the god in room for, because the answer might be no, but, but earlier you talked about, you know, when people find out that you’re, when queer people sometimes find out that you’re orthodox, they’re like, well, why are you still orthodox? Or like, what’s the point of being orthodox? And certainly I know lots of non-Orthodox Jews that are like, I just like don’t get that whole world.

(42m 1s):
But I also know what seems like a growing number of Jews who were either grew up secular or reform and are sort of interested in moving like towards like conservative or more orthodox practice, but feel like, well I don’t want to, like I’m trans. I like don’t know if I, I’m like, I’m not gonna go to a habad house. Like, and so like I I’m wondering if any part of these are sort of like the work that you do attracts like orthodox curious, queer, queer Jews. It absolutely does. And it’s always, we always like scratch our heads a little bit. Like we get a lot of calls from people who wanna convert to orthodoxy.

(42m 44s):
Hmm. A lot of trans people also. And you know, I have certain theories around maybe like some trans people have said to me, ’cause like in an orthodox synagogue you have a, you have a divider, so men aren’t, or one side of women on the other. And as you know, growing up in that and you’re sitting in the women’s section, but you feel like you belong in the men’s section when you finally can go into the men’s section, it is like incredibly validating around, you know, your gender. So, but anyway, so for people who are wanting to convert or who are ortho curious also like, you know, it’s not like I don’t get it because it’s the same answer that I give.

(43m 26s):
Why are you still orthodox? Right? Yeah, I get it. It’s a very compelling life and, but it comes with so many restrictions and so many things you cannot do, but it also comes with great meaning and things you can do and you’re, you’re supposed to do. So yeah, people are drawn to it. non-Orthodox people are very drawn some times to orthodox spaces and there’s a warmth. There’s also, like I was saying before, a sense of meaning and ritual and an obligation. And so I think that in a world where, you know, like anything goes, sometimes people need to be told no, everything doesn’t go like, yeah, you can’t do this now, you can do this later.

(44m 7s):
Like, I think people like boundaries and that is what Jewish law gives you. It gives you a structure. And I know I craved that when I was growing up, so that’s what I got out of it. Yeah. So people want meaning, you know, people want warmth, people want community, and these are all the things that we get in this community. I love that you said obligation in that sort of mix of things. I think about that a lot as a community organizer and as a relationship coach. And like there certainly is something about boundaries and there’s something about like, we’re all responsible for our own feelings and all of that. Like, and also there, for me it feels like something about, there is also something about like choosing to be bound up together and choosing to be obligated to one another.

(44m 57s):
Or like maybe sometimes like being told that you’re obligated to one another. And so like, can you share more about like whether like in an orthodox framework or just like in your own sort of like personal Miriam framework of sort of like the power of obligation and how that could look like in a healthy context? Sure. So I have this reflex that not everybody in my family appreciates That Whenever I hear that somebody does not have a place to spend Shabbat or like they need a place to stay over, like I’m like, stay with us, you know, and I’m moving other People some, yeah, the same reflex. They don’t have the same reflex all, I mean, they’re very hospitable, but I’m just like, you have to stay with us.

(45m 40s):
Like, that is, and that’s actually, that’s the whole metaphor of the a Shell tree. So I guess it works for me that Abraham and Sarah planted this sheltering tree in the desert. So when they saw people wandering and needing a place to stop and, and be fed and being taken care of, and then they would do that and then send them on their way. So that’s the a Shell tree metaphor. And, and you know, so like I have this feeling of like, if somebody needs a place, you just give it to them. There’s like no question. So it’s not even a choice for me. You know, if somebody’s sick, it is not a choice. You actually must try to visit them or bring them some food.

(46m 23s):
If somebody needs money to live it, it is not a choice to give charity. It is an obligation for us to give at least 10% of our income to charity. And so like, there’s not a lot of questions like, tell me what to do and I’ll do it. You know? And so yeah, I think that’s, you know, we’re obligated to take care of each other and so yeah. So those are some of the ways it shows up in my life. Awesome. If folks are like interested in learning more about Elle getting involved in the programming, wanna tune into your, like make use of your warm line.

(47m 4s):
Like what are the ways that folks can connect with you? Sure. So great. So just, you can email us, I will tell you info@selonline.org, E-S-H-E-L-O-N-L-I-N-I-N e.org info at. And you’ll find somebody who, an actual person on the other line, on the other side of that who will respond to you. And if you, if you’re in, if you’re feeling like you’re in distress or you want support or you wanna find out more about our programs, you can call our warm line, which the number is 7 2 4 SL zero one or 7 2 4 3 7 4 3 5 0 1.

(47m 52s):
You can leave a voicemail or a text. Yeah. So there’s a lot of ways just go to our website and you’ll see all the ways to reach out to us. We have a whole calendar of events. We have about 15 to 20 support groups we run each month online, so they’re very accessible. And then we have a lot of regional events in different cities, and we have a full program in New York City, so that’s good if people are in that area. Also, we have Shabbat dinners and we do once a month on a Monday night, we have a in-person event in New York and we have chapters all over.

(48m 33s):
So there’s also ways for people outside of New York City to get involved and to be with people. Fantastic. Well thank you for this lovely conversation. And I, we like to close by asking guests, like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy lately? I love that. Oh boy. You know, I have to say, I’m discovering, and this isn’t, I grew up in the city, a New York City girl. Like this was never anything I would’ve said. Like, I like being in nature, just, it does bring me joy. And I, I learned that from being in nature and, and being in the moment, like there’s nothing, like just being fully present and just appreciating what is right now, this very moment.

(49m 15s):
And, And I also, my, my dog brings me great joy. He’s incredible. He is a love bug And I just love being with him. And so I think like, you know, I think animals and, you know, there’s like great, that’s also part of nature, you know, just like these beings that actually we have no clue what they’re thinking or what they’re, you know, they’re what they’re all about. It’s like a mystery. So like, I just love, you know, I love watching birds and animals and being with my animal and yeah. So those are two things I think. And what else? My children, when they’re willing to talk to me when they’re teenagers, but they, they bring me incredible joy.

(49m 59s):
So yeah. Thank you for that question. I love thinking about that. You’re welcome. Well, thank you again, Maria, for being here with us today. Absolutely. Brian, it was so great to meet you. Maybe I’ll see you at an initial retreat. Yeah. I’m like, I’m like, sign me up and you stop by at night in New York or something. I’m, I’m gonna be joining the email newsletter and staying in the loop on all things. Sounds really cool. Oh good. Alright. Thank you. Keep up the good work, The podcast. Thank you. The Queer Theology podcast Is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBT, LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

(50m 42s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post Faith and Identity: Miryam Kabakov on Building Inclusive Orthodox Communities appeared first on Queer Theology.

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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(1m 56s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis to Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. And welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Can you believe that we are at the final, the final section of our deep dive into the gospel of Matthew? I can hardly believe it, to be honest.

(2m 37s):
This has been a ride. Yeah. You know, before we dive into these final things, I just wanna say, you know, Brian, you And I have talked about how over the years of doing the lectionary that revisiting these texts, even texts that we were super, super familiar with, that we learned and discovered new things about the stories about ourselves because that we were different from the time that we had revisited them. And I, And I have to say that doing this deep dive and reading this kind of in order all along, like I’ve learned so many new things, even though I already, I felt like I already knew a lot. And I’m wondering what this experience has been like for you.

(3m 17s):
It you feeling that too? Like what’s, what’s kind of standing out for you? Yeah, I also feel like I am learning new things. Finding new things. You know, I think that a few weeks ago I said something like, it just scripture’s kind of like a, like a, a fruit where you, or an orange where you can, like, there’s always sort of like more that you can, you can squeeze out of it. And so returning to some of these texts, some, some of that we’ve covered on the podcast, some that we, that I just sort of know outside of the podcast in my own personal life, I definitely am finding new, like completely new information about them as I’m, you know, reading commentaries on it and reading my, like looking at the notes in the study bible and, and learning from you.

(3m 58s):
I’m like, oh, I, like, there’s a, there’s some some facts that I didn’t know that enriched my understanding of the text. And then there’s an element of just sort of like experiencing the text in a different way and relating to it in a different way. And, and maybe like, I knew everything, quote, you knew everything, but different things are sticking out to me or I’m making new and different connections from the text to my own life. And I think there’s also been an additional element of, by reading the whole, the whole book of Matthew from start to finish, but also not rushing through it. Like we didn’t read the whole book of Matthew over the course of, you know, three days a week.

(4m 40s):
Even we read it over the course of two months. I think that like, sitting in that, I feel like I was able to sort of like dip into and immerse myself more fully in that world because I was really like spending a lot of time rolling around in there rather than getting in or getting out. It reminds me of, you know, like if you’re doing a meditation practice, sometimes it takes like a few minutes to like to settle in, right? It’s like if you only meditate for two minutes, like that can be helpful in its own way, way, but it’s not the same as like doing a 10 or a 20 or a 30 minute meditation or, you know, you know, there’s all that sort of research around focus that like, every time you switch between tasks or apps, it takes your brain a little bit of time to like reorient yourself.

(5m 28s):
And so like, you know, as a, as a, you’re a writer Shay, you know, like you can’t write a novel in spurts of, oh, you, maybe you could, but like writing a novel in spurts of five minutes is gonna be different than like really being able to sort of like sink in and absorb. Or if you’re a reader, even like when you’re like on your, when you’re like on the, the couch with a book for like hours on a, you know, on a rainy day that feels different than reading for, you know, five, 10 minutes on the subway to and from work. They’re like, they’re both interesting. But I like, I I, so I noticed that sort of like, sense of immersion in the text, which I really appreciated. Yeah. And I, I think what you said is so interesting, right?

(6m 8s):
Because we, I’ve been talking with some folks who are, who are wanting to, to start spiritual rituals and, and they’re feeling this weight of, I don’t know where to start. I don’t have the perfect amount of time. And so I think that there’s like a yes and to your five minutes a day, right? Like it’s so like, you’re right, you, you could totally write a novel in five minutes a day and also at some point you’re probably gonna have to sink deeply into it for hours at a time in order to revise, to fix the story, et cetera. And also, if you don’t spend the five minutes a day or whatever it is that will take you to get started, you’re never gonna have the novel to revise. And I think that that’s the same with spiritual practices, right?

(6m 49s):
Yeah. If You wait until you have the perfect hour of total silence when no one else is in the house, and you have the fancy candle and the right matches and the whatever it is that you tell yourself you really need in order to pray or to meditate, like you’re just never gonna do it. And so that, that tension of you gotta just dive in and also at some point in the diving in, what does it take for you to have a more settled and in-depth practice? Yeah. You know, I really enjoy those, you know, days where I am cuddled up on the couch reading a book for hours. But pretty much every book that I’ve ever spent done that with, I first like impulse bought the book and then like immediately opened it and read just for five minutes, right?

(7m 34s):
And then, and then I had to like move on with my life. And it’s like oftentimes I like do a few, like many blocks of reading in shorter spurts before, like, I, I, the, the, the story starts to like draw me in and then, And I get, I’m in the prac, I get into the habit of reading, you know, I start to like connect with the characters more. I get excited about the story and then I can sort of like settle in deeper. And so like, if you have a, if you don’t read the Bible at all currently or you haven’t read the Bible in years, the Bible feels scary. You don’t, like, you don’t have to, you know, spend hours every day reading the Bible. Like, don’t do that. But like, if you have a question about like, oh, I wonder what that story that I always like really, you know, enjoyed or appreciated or thought was weird or didn’t like, like I went to what was going on there.

(8m 22s):
Like, you can start right now looking for answers to those questions. And then he always say, should I continue to, to follow your curiosity? This was like a good time to plug, like, as this, as this series is wrapping up, if you want to like learn how to do this sort of work, we have like a whole self-paced course called journeying to the Bible that like walks you through the process that we did with Matthew so that you can do it on your own for any book or any passage or any story in the Bible, you can find that and others at Queer Theology dot com slash resources. Alright, let’s do it. We, let’s do our, are looking at chapters 26 through 28.

(9m 4s):
These are the last four chapters, three chapters Math Never been My Strong Suit of the Gospel of Matthew. We are still in holy week. We’re actually just at Wednesday. So we, we the entire like long, long podcast that we did last week was Monday and Tuesday chapter 26 starts Wednesday. Here’s some things you should know as we dive in. The gospel of Matthew super, super closely follows Mark’s story. Matthew adds a couple of things. He adds the story of the fate of Judas, which we’ll get to in a little bit.

(9m 45s):
And the guard at the tomb, which we’ll talk more about otherwise, pretty much this is the same as Mark in the Beginning of Matthew 26. Jesus pretty much concludes his teaching ministry, even though he does continue to speak. There are no more like speeches or discourses like we are now just heading towards The End, which I found really fascinating. I don’t know that I had ever like picked that up before until seeing that really spelled out in the commentary. And I thought, oh, that’s a really interesting, a really interesting note. Yeah. Another thing to notice is that Matthew is the first narrative to specify Passover as the time when, when Jesus’s passion occurs.

(10m 32s):
And this is important only because during this time the Roman governor regularly came to Jerusalem with extra troops in case there was an attempted uprising. And so this strikes me as a really strategic emphasis on Matthew’s part to really contrast the idea of two kingdoms once again, right? Rome comes to quash the oppressed, Jesus comes to free them. And so setting all of this in a historical context of an actual celebration that happened when we know things that happened politically around that celebration feels really important to name and to note. Yeah. You might not know the answer to this, so it’s okay if you don’t, but do you know, like was there, was there connections to Jesus being executed around Passover in like the letter in, in earlier letters?

(11m 25s):
Or is this like the first ever written down connection between like, crucifixion, resurrection and Passover? I don’t know. My sense would be that this is the first Okay. But I would have to check the letters and, and the only reason I say that, my sense is that it’d be the first is because Paul’s letters tend to not really tell any narrative stories, right? Yeah. That they’re all about like, this is what Jesus taught, not anything about this is what happened. Yeah. I guess I was like wondering like, is is he talking about Jesus as like the Passover lamb or like the new sacrifice or like when he was, you know, but it, it’s, it’s, it sounds like answers.

(12m 5s):
I don’t know, which I think is a great thing to model that like sometimes we have to take notes of like, and then, and then I like, like I, there’s, I was curious about that, but like you listening at home, like might not be curious about that. So like, if you’re curious about that, like, don’t go Google it, but I’m, but after we’ve finished recording this, like I I might go Google it. I think that is one of the things that I really appreciate about, like exploring the world of the Bible is like we all get to sort of like pull out the threads that interest us. So yeah. Thanks for humor me. Yeah. Yeah. I also wanna say upfront that this narrative is really, really tricky to talk about because Matthew’s polemic against Jewish religious leaders is overt and it’s loud, it’s not as loud as in loud the Gospel of John, but it’s still loud.

(12m 51s):
Yeah. And that has su subsequently been used in really, really horrific ways and still continues to be. And so I just wanna note that, that as we’re talking about this, it’s complicated ground to talk about and also say that it’s really clear that by the time of this writing, that even though Matthew’s audience might have been mostly composed of people who still consider themselves Jewish, there’s definitely strong tension. There’s hostility between the church and the synagogue. Matthew uses the language of synagogue in a, throughout his gospel in a really like to mean nefarious things.

(13m 36s):
And the author of Matthew is really trying to make it appear that Jewish religious leaders are responsible for Jesus’ death. And so like it just feels important to name that upfront that, and that it doesn’t do us any good to try to explain that away or say that’s not really what the text meant, or that’s not really what the text did. Like that’s, that’s what he’s trying to do. And so I think we just have to own that and, and then talk about, like, we can talk, we can talk lots of things around like why he might have done that and how we can handle it responsibly. But I think that we first have to just like name that that is what hap what is happening.

(14m 18s):
Yeah. Oh man. That feels like to make a modern connection of like, we can’t, like, as a white person, I like can’t effectively confront racism if I’m like unable to recognize like the times in which I like do or say like racist shit or like have in my past done or said racist shit, right? That like, it, like it sort of, we have to sort of like look at it with sort of like an unflinching honesty and then decide like, okay, like where do we go from here? Yeah. So those kind of opening statements, we head into this text this Wednesday text with a, a story of the anointing of Jesus and this woman who remains anonymous pours super expensive perfume on Jesus’s head.

(15m 4s):
And I found that this was really interesting. I don’t know that I had like really, I, I think this is another moment where the way that we’re often taught about these stories right? Is that we collapse all of the gospels together. And so like any kind of anointing story just becomes like this wash for me of like, there was a woman who cried and anointed and, and like cried on Jesus’s feet and wiped him with her hair. And then there was this other story of Jesus being anointed by a woman. And like in our minds they just kind of become the same narrative. And so like, it’s important to note that this is not that narrative, that this is not Mary Magdalene, this is a, this is an anonymous woman, we don’t know who this woman was, and she pours expensive perfume on Jesus’s head.

(15m 50s):
And this is not an anointing for office. So like, this isn’t, this isn’t anything about Jesus’s priesthood or king hood. This is a pre preparation for burial. And the other thing that I had never noticed before is that in Matthew’s gospel, we’re gonna jump ahead, the women don’t come to the tomb to anoint Jesus as they do in some of the other gospels. They come to sit vigil, which we’ll talk about. But it’s already been done. The Jesus’s anointing has already been done by this anonymous woman prior to his death. And so it doesn’t get repeated, which I found to be just the most fascinating.

(16m 30s):
This is a moment for me where like that piqued my curiosity. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is a really beautiful and fascinating narrative. Yeah. And so in this story then we have a comment where, you know, people are, are pissed that this woman has spent, has poured this expensive perfume on Jesus’ head. And Jesus says, the poor you will always have with you, which has now become this like often debated quote. And people say like, that means that we don’t have to do anything to alleviate poverty. Like we can just ignore it because we’re not gonna be able to do anything about it anyway. And other people say, well, Jesus didn’t really mean that. And again, this is a moment where you like have to know some of the context.

(17m 12s):
And Jesus is alluding to Deuteronomy 1511, which says, poor persons will never disappear from the earth. That’s why I’m giving you this command. You must open your hand generously to your fellow Israelites, to the needy among you and to the poor who live with you in your land, which is part of an entire chapter about the year of Jubilee. And so I think that’s important to note because like we miss that, but Matthew’s audience totally would’ve known that reference. They would’ve picked it up. And so we have then this story of extravagant love of a woman and how in some ways she’s the only one who really seems to know what’s going on in preparing Jesus for his burial.

(17m 56s):
But then we also have, even in the midst of this moment where people are being crabby about the perfume, Jesus is pointing them toward justice that this statement about the poor you will always have with you wasn’t a, so we don’t have to care about them. It’s like, yeah. So like, again, your call to discipleship is to do something about the people living in poverty. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that that’s, that start of that sentence can be completed in so many different ways and it like, it’s so important that we like play it out and, and, and catch these references. This reminds me again how, you know, I feel like a broken record on this. Like, it’s like, it’s like reading Shakespeare where you like, if you don’t do some research, you like, don’t catch all the references and sometimes you like might actually walk away with the opposite impression because those references like really change so much about this.

(18m 48s):
And so I think like, you know, there’s something there about like, we ha like is our job to take care of folks and we’re like, whether or not we ever eradicate poverty or not, like that doesn’t mean we like stop trying. Yeah. And I think, I think that gets back to our conversation before about like this kind of, we focus on the here and now while we also look to the future and, and that it’s like we, we don’t not do anything just because we can’t have everything that we want or everything that we dream of right away. Like we still have to do the work even if it’s incremental and slower than we’d like. Yeah. And I think that there’s like something about this, this pairing right, of this like extravagant gesture and this like expensive perfume and sort of like the poorer will always be with you, but like, and also to keep working towards it that it’s like, I don’t know there, it like in all likelihood, like we’re not going to totally eradicate global poverty in my lifetime.

(19m 51s):
Right? Like, I can be a realist, right. And say that like, like, that’s probably not gonna happen. I, you know, and also like what does it mean to like act as if it is possible to believe that that is possible and then also to sort of like do some things that usher that in, right? Like this sort of like anointing with exp expensive oil. And I think that there’s a difference, right? Like it’s expensive, but it’s not like, you know, 80% of the city of Los Angeles police, like city, city budget going to police, right? Like it’s a symbol, it’s like a symbolic, but part of it is it’s both expensive but it’s also somewhat symbolic, right? So it’s not like we should just like not care if like we waste money, but that like sometimes like it’s okay to like live extravagantly to believe that more possible.

(20m 40s):
And So just sort of like live into that tension of like, yes. Yes. And So we move from this like really extravagant story of the woman anointing Jesus for burial into Judas getting paid to portray Jesus. And Matthew quotes the sum of, you know, this 30 pieces of silver, which is from Zacharia 1112 through 13, which says that 30 pieces ofer silver is the shepherd’s wages. And so it’s like this poultry sum and it’s designed to be in contrast to the story of the woman, right? Like Jude, Judas accepts nothing to betray while the anonymous woman gives everything to honor, which I find a really striking image.

(21m 29s):
Yeah. It reminds me also of, I feel like some of, there’s like, you know, like if you try to save your soul, you’ll lose it. You in order to like save your soul, you know, in order to save your soul you have to like lose it. Like there’s just sort of like this like yeah. That that like, you know, people sacrifice their integrity, throw people under the bus, let go in search of power. And even like, even when they actually get like millions or billions of dollars, it’s still I think like costs them more than it’s worth. Yeah. And so I like I that just this, this object lesson of like you, like you might seem like it might, you might feel like you’re getting a lot in the moment, but it’s actually just sort of like a, a meager payout for, you know, not ushering it like working towards the kingdom of God.

(22m 22s):
And that enters us into day four Thursday. So we’re trucking right? A lot. And so d day four Thursday begins with the disciples preparing for Passover. And so they needed to locate a place within Jerusalem, which was the only legitimate location for eating the Passover meal. They needed to search the room for leave and remove anything, including crumbs that might contain yeast, obtain the lamb, have it ritually, slaughtered by the priest in the temple, roast the lamb and prepare it with necessary items. And so all of this is like when it talks about them trying to like find a room, you know, they’re trying to do all of this as outsiders to the community and to prepare all of this and to do it right in a space that wasn’t their home.

(23m 6s):
And so this then becomes the backdrop for what Christians now term the last supper, but is them also preparing for this meal that was really imp important in their, their religious tradition. Yeah. And it feels important to draw a distinction between the Passover meal that Jesus is eating, that Jesus and disciples are eating that like other Jews at this time would’ve been eating and Passover seders, which did not exist at the time because pass crusaders take the place of the temple sacrifices after the destruction of the temple. Right? When there is no lamour, there’s no longer a temple to sacrifice to.

(23m 49s):
That is sort of like we remem like one of the parts of the Seder. It’s, it’s to tell the story of the exodus, but also part of it’s to remember the temple sacrifices, right? And so like Jesus observed Passover, but in a wildly different way than modern Jews are observing Passover. Like you were saying, you like going the temple and, and slaughtering lambs for sacrifice. And so like it’s, it feels very inauthentic to say like, oh, I want to celebrate, I’m a Christian And I wanna stay Christian, but I want to celebrate Passover like modern Passover or I don’t wanna say Passover at all because like that’s what Jesus did. And it’s like, no, like that is not what Jesus was doing.

(24m 31s):
And Passover as it is currently celebrated was sort of a, a later development. Yeah. And so I, this feels like a great time to also talk about the practice of Christian seders. Yes. Which, you know, you And I have gotten into some, some kerfuffles on the interwebs about basically saying that like you can’t, you cannot host, I mean you can, but it’s like not good of you to host a Christian Seder that like, that doesn’t exist. That it’s appropriation of the Jewish tradition. That it’s not even like accurate to what Jesus would have been doing.

(25m 12s):
It’s just like, it’s just not a good idea. And so then people will always come back with, but I was once invited to go to Passover with my Jewish friends and it’s like, that is a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I have also been invited to Passover with my Jewish friends. Yeah. Like you hosting a Christian Seder in your church with no Jewish people present is not the same thing as you as a Christian with the invitation of a Jewish person going to observe a Seder dinner or Seder service, like in the way that they do it and not a not bringing your Jesus and putting him into it or onto it.

(25m 58s):
Yeah. It like, it kind of reminds me of also like, you know, it’s like sometimes you get invited to your friend’s birthday party, right? And like you go to celebrate them and their birthday, but it’s like not your birthday and you do it because like you’re a good friend. So I think also it’s like, it’s even it’s, it’s about like if you’re invited to a friend Seder and you’re celebrating like with them to celebrate them, awesome. It’s not about being like, oh, I want to like celebrate Passover to feel more connected to Jesus, so let me go like seek out a Seder at a synagogue or haad as like, yeah. Like be this, like this is like so that, so that sort like take it on as your own spiritual practice.

(26m 38s):
And I think this is important because like the Eucharist like is kind of like, like if anything is gonna be Christian Seder, right? It’s the Eucharist. Like we have like Christianity has developed like its own tradition around wine, around sacrifice, around bread that has its own like unique and specifically Christian origin and flavor that like is inspired by this but like is like distinctly Christian as opposed to a, a Jewish practice and especially a Jewish practice that came into existence like post it’s, it’s split with Christianity.

(27m 19s):
You know, in our, our workshop on rituals for resistance, one of the things that we talk about is like when you are in a space of you start to feel disconnected from your own spiritual practice for some reason, like it’s, it’s just, it’s not working for you anymore. And you start to try to find other spiritual practices that do feel right, that do reconnect you, that one of the things that it, that people often do is like, what are things outside of my tradition that I can try out? And one of the things that we talk about in that workshop is that like actually probably anything that you want to try out from another tradition already exists within your own tradition.

(28m 2s):
You just have to find it, right? Like praying with beads exists in so many different religious traditions. Yeah. So you don’t have to actually go out and buy a Buddhist set of mala beads, right? Like you can pray the rosary or you can find another, there are like anglican beads, right? There are all of these different ways of praying with beads. And so this also feels like a moment for if part of what you’re longing for or hungry for is a different way of connecting to figure out what in your own tradition maybe that hasn’t been practiced in a really long time, but that you can go to Yeah.

(28m 42s):
And pull out and try in order to not appropriate from other traditions. Yeah. I think like regardless of what your religion or spiritual practice like spiritual school is, like if you like candles, there’s something for you if you like incense or smells, there’s something for you if you like, like, you know, the changing of like the, the wa waxing and waning of the sun over the course of the year. Like there’s something for you there. Yeah. I I I really appreciate that perspective. If you want to like, if the, you don’t really have spiritual practices, the ones that you do feel stale or you’re just like wanting to connect more with a divine in a way that feels like you and also queer and also connected check out ritual tools for resistance and resilience is that Queer Theology com slash virtuals.

(29m 31s):
So in this narrative then where they’re having this Passover dinner, we do then get a narrative where Jesus petrick predicts his betrayal, he inaugurates the Eucharist. And this is, this is one of those interesting things, right? That the Eucharist, the, the earliest form of the language around it and even some of the tradition was in Paul in First Corinthians. That’s kind of the first place that we have it. And so by the time Matthew is written, this has already become something that Christians do when they gather together. But it’s a, it’s, but all we have at this point is language around what Jesus did at this dinner.

(30m 18s):
And then so the Matthew takes almost like the liturgy and puts it back into the story and creates a story around it. And so this is another moment where we have this, this fascinating mashup of, of traditions that are getting formed and fleshed out and that we have this picture then when we read First Corinthians of what this last meal looked like, but the last meal was created because of the language in first Corinthians. The two can’t exist really. Yeah. Like that one doesn’t exist separate from the other. And so I think that’s a fascinating thing. I think it’s important to note and to pay attention to.

(30m 60s):
And it’s also just, I I find it nerdily Interesting. Yeah. And I, this is I think not unique to Christianity that often in religion and spirituality, like sacred stories get developed to sort of like explain why things are the way they already are. So like looking at the story of, you know, in particular Genesis two, right? Of like, and Genesis two and Genesis three of the sort of expulsion from the garden. It’s like why, like why does life’s like, why is life hard? Why does it like hurt? That’s sort of like a big sort of like cosmic question that gets answered in this sort of story of Adam and Eve and the, the apple and the the serpent, the the deceiver.

(31m 42s):
But also on a, on a more spiritual practices level, you know, there’s lots of discussion around like, do like Jewish people observe the Sabbath because it’s commanded to in the Bible or like, is are the stories in the Bible there? Because as a practice that was already developing and like God resting on the seventh day, like was this story was told and included that because, because of this practice that was already happening, right? So like similarly, a lot of these Christians things are also that we have these like snippets of claims or stories or theological beliefs that then get sort of like fleshed out into story form. And I think like stories like grip us in a way that like creeds are also powerful in their own way, but like a, a story you can sort of like live in and, and explore.

(32m 32s):
And so I think that that there’s power in stories is something that like an impulse like humans have always done to say like, what, like what happened? What actually happened? What do we imagine happened? What might have happened to sort of like make meaning of our lives? So after dinner, Jesus takes the disciples to the Mount of Olives, Jesus prays and is arrested the small group of disciples that are mentioned here as the ones that he takes apart with him while he prays. Same group that was present at the transfiguration, which feels important to note. And that Jesus’ three times of praying form a contrast to the denials of Peter who sleeps instead of praying.

(33m 20s):
And it reminds me of the stories we talked last week about being ready, right? That like, yeah, part of what enables Jesus to be ready for what’s coming is this time that he spends connecting with the divine, whereas Peter falls asleep and then when the shit hits the fan, like he’s not prepared because he hasn’t done any of that work. And I, I think just think that’s really interesting. Yeah. You know, like it’s lent right now. And so like I’ve been talking a lot about like rituals and spiritual practices and how like a lot of times it’s like kind of boring, right? Like I shared about how in the past I’ve like gone to a church and sat in the empty sanctuary and like read the same passage us from the prophets and said the same sort of like structured prayer over and over and over again like every day.

(34m 7s):
And like how that’s like kind of boring but then like prepares you to, to do the hard work. And I, I’ve been thinking about that again, like as we’re back in lunch again, I’ve been sort of like recommitting to like a daily prayer practice And I, you know, I have a DH adhd, like I like know that meditation is like good for me, but like, oh my god, to like sit and like sit still for 10 minutes is like so hard that I’ve actually been finding that like having a like, like a prayer or a blessing or something like that or reading that’s like someone else has figured out what I should, what I should do like helps me get into the, into the groove.

(34m 48s):
So like every morning I like read the same prayer and like somehow even if it takes me 10 minutes to to, to go through all the readings, that feels easier than just like sitting for 10 minutes. And then what I find is that like after that I am sort of still, I, I I’m, I’m able to sit in silence for, you know, five, 10 minutes if I want to. But also that there’s something about like the prayers and blessings that I’m currently reading involve a lot of talk about, you know, justice and also like forgiveness and, and accountability and like, I don’t know, I like, I I think like being kind of fronted with that every day then like makes me more aware of like, you know, someone, someone shared like a little bit of like ways in which like they, I had hurt their feelings recently and like, I think that like since we’re like smacked out, out in the middle of lent when I like got that text message like, oh, every day I’ve been reading these prayers and blessings about accountability and justice and forgiveness, it now feels harder to like ignore this text message or like explain a what, like justify in my head I could come up with like all the reasons why I did the thing that I did, right.

(35m 56s):
And it’s like, oh man, like I wanna do that. But like I’ve spent the past like 20 days like reading the same like prayer and blessing over and over and over again about like justice and compassion and forgiveness and like, you know, a sort of like beloved community. And so now I’m like, oh, like I gotta, like this is the moment where I put my money where my mouth is And I like, I think that you can be a moral and take accountability for your actions type of person without religion. Like, and also like having some daily reminders or some regular reminders I think like helps you to do the hard work. Whether it’s something like taking accountability when you hurt someone’s feelings or like being prepared to go toe to toe with like the Roman authorities in Jesus’ time, like white nationalism in our current and fascism in our current time.

(36m 45s):
Like we need like is like, you’re not gonna go from zero to resisting fascism. You need some like in-between points to, to steal you for that. Yeah. So Judas then comes with temple guards and calls Jesus the outsider’s term rabbi instead of the insider’s term Lord. Which I find really fascinating because it strikes me as like it makes sense that that Judas would call Jesus rabbi because if he called him Lord, it would’ve set Judas apart as one guilty of treason, right. And implicated him in the whole thing that he is trying to set Jesus up for.

(37m 26s):
But once again, it’s this this sense of like who’s in, who’s out in, in, in the way of like looking at like where do your allegiances lie? Yeah. Whose kingdom are you a part of? Who are you claiming as Lord? Which I, I find really, really interesting. Yeah. And then one of the disciples, and in Matthew it’s not specifically named as Peter. So again we have things where it, things change. The narrative has changed over the course of time. One of the disciples wields a sword and Jesus makes three points the way of nonviolence that Jesus is not being arrested against his will, that he goes willingly and that the scriptures must be fulfilled.

(38m 9s):
Which isn’t to say that these are prophecies, but that they are the will of God to which Jesus will submit. And then it’s at this moment that all of the disciples abandon him except for Peter. We see none of them again until after the resurrection. So again, this is a place where Matthew is different than some of the other gospels, right? In some of the other gospels, the beloved disciple or some of the Marys are present at the cross. That is not the case in Matthew’s gospel. Everyone’s just gone. The only time we’re gonna see Peter from here on out is when he denies Jesus three times and then he disappears too. So I think that like all of this is, is still really important.

(38m 51s):
Y’all, we are still in chapter 26 and we’re trucking along in this podcast in 26 55. The word that’s used is bandit. It’s a word that Josephus who is a historian uses for terrorists and freedom fighters who offer armed resistance to Roman occupation. So they’re talking about Jesus being arrested as a bandit, as someone who is part of this terrorist community as a freedom fighter. Yeah. We, we move from the scene in Jesus being arrested to the trial with Caiaphas, the high priest.

(39m 32s):
This is definitely a hundred percent written as a piece of polemic. The author of Matthew is making these religious leaders out to be the bad guys very much saying that they are even violating their own tradition in the condemnation of Jesus with the high priest tearing his garments. This is probably also like not how any of this worked that they wouldn’t have had, they definitely wouldn’t have had power to like sentence Jesus to death, which is why Matthew then sends Jesus to Pilate. But I think like in general, this type of scene wouldn’t have happened. And so I think it’s really important to ask like why might this scene exist?

(40m 12s):
What do we do with it? I don’t know if you have any answers Brian, Or you just sit with that. Yeah, I mean I, i I don’t know if I have any answers. So like a few years ago I was on TikTok And I saw this creator Millie, not so Vanilli, who’s a Jewish woman who we ended up having on the podcast last May. I like Van boy so hard, she’s so great. But she, someone asked, in one of her comments, she made a video responding to like, is it possible to like separate Christianity from antisemitism? And she very generously said like, yes, I think so, but it like, it’s gonna take a lot of work and y’all have to do the work.

(40m 52s):
And I remember being like, oh that is, that is quite generous of you because I think it, I have seen people say like, no, it is not possible that like at its core Christianity, like, it’s like part of the founding myth of Christianity is anti-Semitism. And so like I think like I, like I also like, I sort of like wanted, I sort of like wanted to believe Millie, right? That it is like that that Christianity is not inherently anti-Semitic. That like Jesus was doing a, like a good thing. He was doing a different thing than like some of the other religious leaders at his time. Lots of people were doing different things and like they went different directions, but it doesn’t, for us in the year of our Lord 2023 does not have to be an, an antisemitic. And so I, I think it is incumbent upon people who want to remain Christian to sort of like really stare this text down and be like, like you were saying, like why mo scene exist and and what do we do with it?

(41m 43s):
And I think it’s also important for folks who don’t want to remain Christian, But we like raised Christian or at least we’re like not raised anything else and like who celebrate Christmas even if it’s in a secular sort of way to really, or like anyone who’s just like not Jewish in general because like anti-Semitism permeates our culture so much to really sit with like what messages about Jews in general. She was religious leaders in particular Jewish law, like Jewish motivations have like permeated you and even just like saying I’m no longer a Christian does not necessarily cure you of like Christianity fueled antisemitism.

(42m 27s):
So it feels really important to sort of like sit, like sit with that and do some examination around that because so much of, so much of what everyday ordinary people religion or not religious in America think about Judaism is informed by Christianity and in particular like sort of like this version of Christianity, which really sets out to make Jews the ultimate bad guys. Yeah. And I think this is, this is a slightly different direction, but also, you know, just because you’ve left evangelicalism doesn’t mean evangelicalism has left you. And so like even, And I think that that’s another, you know, thing that we run into lots of times of like people rejecting, rejecting certain things, but like not having actually done the work to free themselves of the kind of indoctrination that they received as evangelicals.

(43m 18s):
And so I think that like that’s all part of the work. Antisemitism is definitely part of what you got indoctrinated with, but there’s there’s more, there’s more than just anti-Semitism. Yeah. And if you, and if you, if you are calling your, the evangelical leaders pharisees as like a derogatory term, like guess what you’re doing? You’re doing an evangelical anti-Semitism and so like cut, cut that out. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we, we move from the trial with Caiaphas to Peter’s denial. People in the the courtyard area ask Peter three times if he’s with Jesus, he says no, his denials kind of like we said earlier, are in opposition to Jesus’ testimonies and prayers.

(44m 1s):
One of the things that I found interesting about this is that scholars think that this definitely happened because no one would have fabricated a story about such an important leader in the early church failing in this way. So like the fact that this story exists that, that Peter denied people think that it, that it definitely happened, which I find really interesting. Yeah, I don’t know if I entirely buy that, but I, but it definitely, it definitely feels like anything that gets put in the gospels that like would have raised red flags probably is closer to true because like why would you put something in that would hurt your already struggling and young community?

(44m 43s):
And so I think this is yeah, one of them. We’ll talk about another when we hit the resurrection. I was just thinking that. Yes. Okay, now we are day five, day five begins, we have Jesus and Pilate, Pilate is the Roman governor. He’s presented as someone who has real political power as opposed to the religious leaders. And we, we have this moment where like moment Jesus goes before Pilate and then there’s an inset of Judas. So like Jesus goes to Pilate and then we get the story of what happened to Judas. And Judas seems to do all of the right things after he turns Jesus over.

(45m 25s):
He’s sorry, he returns the money that he was given, he acknowledges Jesus’s innocence. But the language one of the commentaries said is really interesting because Judas repentance is the language used there is like regret, repent change one’s mind in contrast to the terms that Matthew uses for discipleship, which are much stronger, which is like to be converted and to reorient one’s life. And it’s used to contrast two people, one who’s all in even when he gets it wrong and one who wasn’t. And I think that that’s really important, right? That there are times when we mess up and that we can seem to do all of the right things, right?

(46m 6s):
We can apologize, we can say that we got it wrong. We can even, you know, do some kind of small act of reparation. But if we don’t actually fundamentally change our lives, if we don’t reorient ourselves, if we’re not converted, like we’re just gonna continue to do the same things. I mean it feels like that’s important and for white folks in any anti-racism work for Christian folks in working in solidarity with Jewish folks like all of these things, like this is a discipleship means something much bigger than just saying you’re sorry and kind of walking away. Yeah. That distinction between changing your mind and changing your life feels really powerful for me.

(46m 51s):
Yeah. Okay, now we’re back to pilot. So we have this like insert then back to pilot pilot’s question is clearly a political charge, treason or rebellion against Rome. I, I’m gonna kind of speed through all of some of this. Like the idea that that pilot would release a prisoner during this time, probably not true, seems really, really unlikely historically. But instead the authors trying to highlight that this is like again, a conflict of two kingdoms. Even the language that they’re using for bar sabas, right? Like who is the son of the father? The author of Matthew is saying Jesus. But again, Yeah, Now we’ve got the worst of the polemic.

(47m 36s):
So the fate of Jesus being accepted by the Jewish people as a crowd and Pilate being absolved, it’s pure propaganda. It, we just have to name that this is pure propaganda coming from the author of Matthew. I do think it’s important to note, not to forgive it, but that like the author of Matthew sees the destruction of the temple that has already happened when Matthew is writing as the punishment that has already been meted out for denying Jesus, which is like not helpful or good, but it, but I think it is important to note that like the author of Matthew doesn’t fall into the trap of proclaiming judgment on Jewish people for generations upon generations like the gospel of John does.

(48m 24s):
So like, I just wanna note that like that again, even within these narratives, like people are doing different things and that John who now by the time the gospel of John is written, those folks are like not at all connected to Judaism anymore. And like his polemic against the Jewish people has them saying like not only do we accept blame, but like we will accept blame for generations down the line. Whereas Matthew is like, we accept blame, but like we’ve already gotten our punishment. So in Matthew’s mind that’s, it’s already all been done. Which I think again is like, not to say that that’s excusing that or that that was a good thing to say, but I do think like he’s doing something different here, which feels important to pull out as we’re like examining what these gospels are saying that are different for one another.

(49m 15s):
Yeah. And a lot of Jewish folks at the time were reflecting on the destruction of the temple and saying like, why did this happen? And like, did we do that? And I think like one of the, one of the projects of modern Judaism is to look back and be like, well maybe like, maybe like it wasn’t our fault that like the Jews don’t think like it’s like the temple got destroyed because we were actually Jesus. But there like there is a tradition within Judaism of seeing the destruction of the temple as like a result of, I think it’s like, you know, like baseless hatred or like squabbling amongst, there’s like there, there’s some reason in traditional given and over time people have questioned that to be like, maybe it’s like actually not our fault that we shouldn’t like blame ourselves. Like maybe like Rome was Rome and like Rome was being Rome and like that’s, I like that’s why, that’s why it happened.

(50m 1s):
So I think that your, that distinction of like it being I think misguided but still sort of like this like one time historical thing rather than like an ongoing curse is important. This also to totally like bring us into modernity just reminds me of like cis gays and lesbians and bi folks who have like historically like the lines between cis queers and trans queers has been like blurry and bendy that like we’ve all just had been sort of like gender and sexuality outlaws together. Like we are are both are like cis queers have like seen as doing like gender wrong even though it’s like our, we we now modern like times conceive of it as like our sex lives and trans folks have been accused of like not just doing gender wrong but also sex wrong and like we’ve been like starting to get some rights and like things are getting like really, really, really scary for all LGBTQ plus people or gender sexual relational minorities, like whatever you wanna call it, right?

(51m 3s):
It’s getting really scary. Scary. And there are some LGB people who are saying like, no, no, no, no, no, no, not us. It’s the like those are the bad guys, those are the ones you want. We, we like Christians, we like America, we like Republicans, we like conservative capitalism values, we like capitalism, like we like sex puritanism. Like really sort of like sucking up to the empire that is America and saying like, we’re not like those queers and not, and those trans folks. And I think that like I see that happening here that Christians are like, shit, Rome is really powerful and they destroyed the temple and were really vulnerable.

(51m 51s):
And what if we try to say, no, no, no, no, no it’s not us, it’s them. Right? Like, and we, they write in like an absolute like of trying to absolve pilot of this, of saying like, don’t worry Rome, like we don’t blame you. It was definitely Rome. But they’re like, like there’s this, I think this really misguided attempt to say like, it’s okay, please don’t hurt us more. Why don’t you get mad at those people over there instead. Yeah. And we’re like, I think going back early to Judas, like I think like we like sold our soul for for 30 shekels. Like I think like, and we, we’ve been paying for ever since And I think even more so even more like immediately and viscerally and physically Jewish folks have been paying for ever since and it’s like, it’s messy And so like dear fucking queer people don’t, don’t do this shit.

(52m 45s):
Yeah. All right, now we’re heading, we’re heading on. Jesus has been condemned to death. Simon is compelled to carry Jesus’s cross. The only person named at the crucifixion in Matthew is Simon of Cyrene, which is an outsider and it emphasizes how Jesus has been abandoned by his own disciples. That someone else, someone not even from the community ends up carrying the cross. Jesus is crucified, he’s hung with common criminals. So like at this point it’s insult upon insult. He doesn’t even get to be hung with like other traitors and bandits. He’s just hung with random thieves.

(53m 27s):
There’s all of these sort of really extravagant, miraculous signs that happen in the gospel of Matthew. The thing to really pay attention to is that many of them echo the Exodus story, which I hadn’t really picked up before. So going back through as you, as you read about these wondrous signs that they’re echoing the Exodus story after Jesus dies, he’s buried not by relatives or disciples, but by Joseph of arimathea, burial of the dead. Especially by tho those killed, by oppressive governments hostile to the Jewish community to to bury the dead was considered an act of piety and much of Judaism.

(54m 8s):
And so Joseph Ameea does this and it’s also important to note that he’s buried in a known tomb in Matthew Joseph. He, he’s buried in Joseph’s own tomb, but Joseph was someone who is rich and had some clout. And so it’s important to note that because it, this wasn’t an unknown tomb that might later be mistaken or gotten wrong or oops, we can’t find him. This is all part of Matthew’s narrative of like, no, we know where they put the body. So that’s important. Then we have this narrative of the women keeping watch over the tomb again, remember they, they don’t come to anoint Jesus that’s already been done.

(54m 52s):
Instead it’s simply the two of them keep watch and it provides a continuity of watch. And I thought, I found that to be really interesting too, that like it’s two women, so it’s like two witnesses who are keeping constant vigil over this tomb so that there is like an eyewitness account but that none of the people who heard promises of the resurrection are present ’cause they’ve all run away and aren’t hiding. Which also feels interesting that we’ve got these women that are keeping watch, but none of the people who like have been told what was gonna happen.

(55m 32s):
They’re just gone. Yeah. All right. Now we got day six unique to Matthew. Again, we have some polemic against Jewish religious leaders. We have the setting of the guard and the ceiling of the tomb. This is only in Matthew and it’s probably to advance the charge apparently current in Matthew’s Jewish environments that the disciples stole the body. And so again, this is a moment where like not excusing it, but there is probably a reason that they’re putting all of this in because they’re fighting back against charges that the followers stole the body. And that that what they’re saying happened didn’t happen.

(56m 13s):
Now we move to move to day seven. We’ve got two Marys that discovered the tomb. The woman come to the tomb to continue their vigil, it important to witnesses and they see the risen Jesus. And even as the risen one, he bears the marks of his self-giving on the cross. One commentator put it as his permanent character and call to discipleship. I thought, Ooh, that is a, yeah, there is something there that is really, really powerful. We have the women becoming the first witnesses and the first tellers of the gospel.

(56m 53s):
And it’s also important to note that like the stories of the appearances of Jesus post resurrection between the gospels, they don’t match, they cannot be reconciled. Like they are just different stories. They’re not part of a single historical report. Like each of these authors is trying to do something different theologically. So like trying to just jam ’em all together doesn’t, it doesn’t do you any good. So don’t worry about the fact that they can’t be reconciled. That’s not the point. Yeah. But Matthew’s gospel, the women become agents of, of the gospel.

(57m 34s):
They’re the first tellers of the gospel. And they also become agents of reconciliation because Jesus tells them to go tell his brothers about his resurrection. And so suddenly now we have a change in language that Jesus is now calling them brothers. And he’s also saying, I know they all abandoned me, but like you go tell them I’m back. And I think that that’s really important and actually really beautiful too. Yeah. Then again, we have a little bit more polemic that the guards are bribed, and here’s something that I found fascinating. They take more money than Judas Scott, so it costs more money to suppress the resurrection than it did to get Jesus killed in the first place, which I found really interesting.

(58m 24s):
And Brian, I think goes back to your point about like selling our souls and, and do we end up doing more harm in the midst of things? Right? Like there’s something too about Yeah. Yeah. You know, it, we, we get, we get one win, but then like, what do we lose in not pushing for even more? Right? Like they, they maybe got a win in getting Jesus killed, but now they’re gonna like have to spend way more money and do a lot more work to suppress it if, if he’s been resurrected. Yeah. Then we’re, we’re almost to The End, and then we’ll kind of talk about what it all means. Then we get the great commission. So the disciples are back, they met in Galilee, which was a theological place.

(59m 7s):
The land of gentiles and outsiders. We get another mountain. It doesn’t matter where the mountain is ’cause it’s, it’s not a mountain, it’s a theological mountain, which I think is important. And we get Jesus coming to the disciples and there’s this beautiful line where it’s like the disciples were there and they believed, but, but some doubted and Mm. And that line has always struck me because like here we have this miraculous moment and they were still getting this line about doubt. And one of the commentaries was like, doubt in this context was not skepticism, but the risky wavering of the one who must decide, it’s not to perfect people or angels, but to a worshiping wavering community to whom the world mission is entrusted.

(59m 55s):
And it’s like, if that just isn’t all of it, right? Yeah. Like, Yeah, It’s not to perfect people. It’s not to angels, it’s not to the powerful, it’s not to, it’s not to anyone. Like, it’s to the messy and doubting and complicated and confused people that like the mission to go out and do all of this work is entrusted. And like that is both terrifying and also I think really meaningful. Yeah. Like, I don’t know if I have all of the answers. I don’t know if I’m a hundred percent certain about what I believe this is really scary. Oh my God. Like am my, like, is this gonna ruin my life?

(1h 0m 36s):
And also, like, I believe in this call and this cause and this mission and this group of people that are huddled around with me that I’m gonna like risk it all anyways, even in the midst of that doubt is profound. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, and it’s then the, like, the final piece of this entire gospel is, it’s only after all of this that now the disciples are given the authority to teach that they have now gone all in with their discipleship and now they’re the ones that are entrusted to carry on and to continue the mission. And again, like this isn’t, this isn’t just about like then going out and getting a bunch of people to pray or prayer.

(1h 1m 20s):
It’s like, no, you have to go out and recruit more people into this mission of discipleship, of yes, going against Rome, of centering the poor and the marginalized. Like that is the great commission, not this like go out and get a bunch of people to pray a prayer that they don’t even understand and dunk ’em in some water. Like that’s not, we’ve, we’ve like misunderstood the meaning of it. Like when Jesus says go out and make disciples, that’s what he’s saying. He’s like, you’ve now done this whole thing. You see what it costs you now go get other people to join too. And like, let’s do this work. And that’s, I, that to me is like the call that that continues on today.

(1h 2m 2s):
Like it’s, we are called to be disciples. We’re called to help other people be disciples, but it’s all around this work of bringing about the kingdom of God here and now. Oh my God. Amen. And that’s the gospel of Matthew. Its entirety. Did it the, do You, Brian, do you have any kind of closing thoughts and reflections as we Finish out? Yes. I mean this is a specific closing thought that’s like, not, doesn’t, doesn’t encompass the whole gospel in Matthew, but you just sort of like scurried right past, like, oh, by the way the accounts of the resurrection and the gospels don’t match are irreconcilable.

(1h 2m 42s):
And also like, it kind of doesn’t matter, which I think like, I appreciate you pointing out, it reminds me almost, I’ve told this story a few times on the podcast before, it reminds me like when I was a freshman in college, taking my first ever religion class and my professor kinda like you were like on his way to another point was like, oh, by the way, the exodus didn’t historically happen. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean? What do you mean? And so like, I think I just wanna acknowledge if you’re listening to this podcast and Shea saying like, oh, they, they don’t match and they aren’t reconciliable, which means like at like, probably none of them actually historically happened. And if that, if that set off like a record scratch in your brain, like what do you mean?

(1h 3m 27s):
Hey girl, I’ve been there. And also I think that like, I know you’ve said Shay, like I don’t know exactly what happened, but like clearly to, to you at least Shay, like clearly something happened around the crucifixion and what Christians have historically called the resurrection that like transformed these people and then transformed history. And like that is something that like you’re jazzed about. And so like Matthew’s retelling of it, the other retellings of it and various gospels and liturgy and letters, like, they’re all sort of like grappling with a combination of like what historically happened, but also what theologically happened.

(1h 4m 10s):
What does that mean for us? Especially in a time where there weren’t video cameras, we dunno exactly. Like what what literally happened, even if we did have a video camera. Like you sometimes you don’t even know for sure what quote unquote like what happened. And so like, it’s kind of like trying to make the, this is the moment, right of like the entirety of Jesus’ life and ministry and everything that they’ve been working on, everything they’ve been accomplishing together, everything they’ve been doing, and then the betrayal and then the crucifixion and like, and then like, and then what? And like, so like this is one of those answers to that question that I think like is a profound mystery and like there’s a, I think there’s a lot of value and faithfulness in saying like, we don’t know exactly what happened and that, like perhaps figuring out the literal historical truth was not important to the earliest Christians because like they compiled contradictory accounts in their canonized bible.

(1h 5m 15s):
And so like that perhaps the answer is like somewhere in between or amongst or in the synergy of them altogether or in the questioning or in the trying to make sense of it for us just as it was for them. And I again, like maybe this, maybe, maybe this is a whole thought for the whole, for the whole podcast that like, like as we look sort of like look at Matthew in its entirety, that like, I think the process of looking for the answers and asking the questions is like just as important as sort of like, like the, the the like where, like the, the places that you land or, or what those answers end up being and that, you know, first Thessalonian is one of my favorite verses like test everything Hal fast to that, which is good.

(1h 6m 9s):
Like this process of like diving into scripture and saying like, what happened, what a scholars think happened, what do I think happened? What does this mean to like, what did this mean to them? Then what does this mean to me now? Like how does this become not like this isn’t a textbook, right? This is a like a sacred text. And so like how does this inform our sacred communities and like our values driven lives today? Think like that is, that’s like the question of the gospel of Matthew. That’s the question of the Bible. That’s the question of Christianity. That’s the question of this podcast. And so like, I’m just excited to like continue to be asking these questions with you, Shane, and, and unafraid to ask them and to pull up the threads and see where they lead and to be sort of doing that with y’all listening and that are part of our like, listening community and our online communities and yeah.

(1h 6m 58s):
So I guess that’s my sort of concluding thought. Yeah. And I, And I think what comes up for me, as you say all of that is that for me, all of this questioning and all of these conversations that we’re having and all of the ways that we dive into these texts are all then to leave us with the question, how then shall we live? Right? It doesn’t actually do us any good to bicker about what actually happened and case for Christ it out. And you know, even to talk about like the folks that are like, well, if the Bible’s infallible, we don’t have any true accountant of the resurrection.

(1h 7m 39s):
It’s like, honey, we don’t have any true account of the resurrection anyway. Not the point. Or like to say that, you know, well, if Jesus didn’t raise from the dead, then all of our faith is worth nothing and, and I’m not gonna be a Christian anymore. Or like, if there is no hell, then, then why do I believe in God? I, I think all of those questions, right, are really important ones to, to answer because they all come back to me to like, okay, then like, how are you gonna live? Like whatever you believe about any of these things, what does that look like in your day-to-day life? How do you treat other people? How, how are you in community? What are you being called to, what are you doing?

(1h 8m 20s):
And I think that that is the question of Matthew of like, great, all of this happened. What does discipleship look like? How are you going to live in the midst of Rome? How are you going to be a follower? How are you called to this community? What are you going to do with your life? Amen And amen and amen. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

The post Throwback: The End. Or is it? Matthew 26-28 appeared first on Queer Theology.

• Satan in the Hebrew Bible: Numbers 22:22
• Satan in the Garden of Eden as the serpent: Ezekiel 28:12-19
• Where the term “fallen archangel” come from: Isaiah 14:12

Pop-cultural resources about The Devil:

• Inferno by Dante Aligheri
• Paradise Lost by John Milton
• The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer
• Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis

A few images depicting Satan

• Florence Baptistry mural
• Detail of Satan from Hans Memling’s Triptych of Earthly Vanity and Divine Salvation
• Devilish propaganda
• William Blake’s depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost

Resources:

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hey Friends, and welcome back to Queer Theology Podcast. You know, we’ve been doing this work for a really long time and over the years we’ve amassed just a trove of episodes. And so we are gonna throw it back today to one of our favorite episodes, which is part of a larger series, which is called The Scary Things Series, scary Things You Might Have Learned in Church.

(53s):
And today’s episode is The Devil and His Many Names we’ve found from lots of talking to lots of folks over the years that a lot of people are really afraid of Satan and the devil and demons and have heard a lot of different things about those entities. And so we wanted to tackle them and talk about them and talk about why you might not need to find them. So scary. So thanks for tuning in and enjoy this throwback episode. Welcome to the second episode of Scary Things that You might have been taught at church. Today we are gonna be looking at Satan and I did all the research on this episode.

(1m 34s):
And so this episode is sort of, I’m Coplay as the host of You’re Wrong About Maintenance Space. Two of my favorite podcasts Shay has. Normally we have, we both know what we’re talking about, but I’ve, I’ve given Shay no information and I’m going to take us on a journey And I will either be very excited at how this goes or it will be a dumpster fire train wreck. So hopefully, hopefully this goes. Well, Shay, before we get started, there’s this famous quote, the greatest trick the devil, devil devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist. Do you know who said that?

(2m 16s):
CS Lewis from screw tape letters. That is what I thought. It is not in CS Lewis’s screw tape letters. Oh, interesting. So actually where it is most popularly, I that’s exactly what I thought so too, it’s from the Usual suspects. Kaiser Soce says it in the 1995 film, but actually it was first said in Quakerism Explains by John Wilkinson in 18 36, 1 of the artifices of Satan is to inducement to believe that he does not exist. And then a number of other people throughout the years said different versions of it. And eventually it ended up in the 1995 film, the Usual Suspects, and then it got implanted into bor and MA’s memories as being by CS Lewis.

(3m 6s):
So today I, I feel like there was a, there was a, like, there was an element of Yeah, Screwtape letters that is, is around that concept. If it’s not the exact quote, if I’m remembering Screwtape letters correctly, yes, There is something about also like, sort of like distracting people with church work and busyness and idleness rather than trying to like be sort of bold allegiances to the devil. So in over the course of this episode, we are going to set out to convince you that life along with the devil, but the devil does not exist. And So just sort of tip our hat.

(3m 45s):
Shay, what do you know about Satan devil, et cetera? Well, I think there’s two questions there, right? There’s the what was I taught? Sure. And so very much what I was taught was that Satan was a fallen angel, was Lucifer, right? That the two were the, were intertwined that Satan was definitely a like being that existed, that was personified and was an individual, right? Yeah. That it, it wasn’t a, a conglomerate that Satan was a, that’s a thing that Satan could tempt and lead people astray, but that Satan couldn’t be in more places than one.

(4m 38s):
So Satan could only be in a singular place, but he had minions and demons that were doing his bidding and that Satan couldn’t get inside your head, right? So if you thought, thought Satan didn’t have access to them, if you prayed silently, Satan didn’t have access to that. But if you prayed out loud, Satan could hear that. Yeah. So that was like, and that we were really like, we should definitely be afraid of Satan and demons because they were trying to tempt us and get us to stray.

(5m 18s):
My church didn’t really go in for the idea of like demon possession. Like that wasn’t really a thing. We didn’t really do exorcisms. I, but, but there was de there was a sense that like a demon or Satan could persuade you to do things and could even do that to Christians. Like if you weren’t, if you were backslidden at the moment. So that was definitely a huge source of fear for me. I mean like my whole childhood was like not, not only do you have to like believe, but you have to like do it really, right?

(5m 59s):
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of fear and anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. So that is all very similar to what I had learned as well. There’s different names that people have used for Satan, Satan, Lucifer, Biba, Diablos also referred to as belly, prince of Darkness, prince of demons, angel of the abyss, father of lies, accuser, adversary, evil, one destroyer slanderer and ancient serpent. And much like you, I was sort of taught that all of these different various ideas were like one person. It’s just like different, different personas or different figures, but like there was like one like ruler of like, there was like one arch villain, right?

(6m 47s):
And so we’re, over the course of this episode, we’re going to sort of explore where our ideas about Satan, the devil, et cetera, come from. So the Hebrew Bible, there’s a few references to Satan or Haitin. The word Satan actually only appears twice. And both times it’s in the story of Baalam, the seer who is asked by the Moabite King Bach to curse the Jews. And Is that the one with the talking donkey? Yes, I believe so because there’s a, I wish I had the longer, I wish I had the full quote pulled, but there’s a, I have a 14 page outline, so I just pulled one quote.

(7m 38s):
So this is like numbers 22, 22, would you read it for us? And God’s anger was kindled because he went and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass and his two servants were with him. Yeah. So here it’s just this adversary, right? It’s not this epic mythical creature. It’s, you know, Can I ask a question? Yeah. So is the language used for angel of the Lord an adversary? Those are two different Yeah, it’s the adversary is words. The words. Yeah. So oftentimes Satan just means adversary or accuser, right?

(8m 20s):
And then only twice in the Hebrew Bible. So this is like an adjective, right? Like it’s a, it’s a, a general sort of like an adversary or an accuser. And then only twice in the Hebrew Bible does Satan appear as like a specific figure. Ha Satan, like the Satan. And one is a brief reference in the book of Zacharia where the high priest is described as standing before a divine angel while Satan stands at his right to accuse him. And the other is in the Book of Job where Satan was like the, has that sort of like central role in the story as a, the well in the story of job, right? That like Satan and God sort of argue about what to do with job.

(9m 4s):
And the book of job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the, the Jewish view of Satan is different than the Christian view. Because in this story like Satan only inflicts suffering with God’s permission. Like Satan is very much subordinate to him and like argues with him. But like ultimately not like in Christianity where it’s viewed as this sort of like wrestling match and like God’s gonna prevail but think Satan like thinks that he is more powerful or could possibly be, right? So that is Satan in the Hebrew Bible, obviously we’re not Jewish folks But we share up some of our scripture together.

(9m 49s):
And so Christianity, early Christians, Catholic church, Protestantism, since then, all of that obviously like references are shared common interest or in ancient Judaism. And so some of our ideas about who Satan is or like what the devil does reference back to the the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. I know that for me one of the things that I was taught was that the devil was the serpent in the Garden of Eden story. But if you like actually read the text of the Garden of Eden story with Adam and Eve, like it’s just a serpent, right?

(10m 32s):
That that that the Hebrew Bible itself isn’t making these connections from the serpent there to Satan, a sort of general accuser to Haan this specific figure. And one of the thing, one of the pla reference points for this idea that Satan, the devil, et cetera, is the serpent comes from Ezekiel 28 19 which many Christians interpret as sort of like pointing back to the devil in the garden of Eden. And so this is Ezekiel 28, 12 through 19 You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

(11m 15s):
You were in Eden, the garden of God, every precious stone adorned you, cornelian, crystalite and emerald topaz, onyx and Jasper Laos, zuli, turquoise and barrel. Your settings and mountings were made of gold on the day you were created. They were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub for so I ordained you, you were on the holy mount of God, you walked among the fiery stones, you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you through your widespread trade. You were filled with violence and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mounts of God And I expelled you guardian cherub from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.

(11m 60s):
So I threw you to the earth, I made a spectacle of you before kings by your many sins, a dishonest trade. You have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you and it consumed you And I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who are watching all the nations who knew you are appalled at you. You have come to a horrible end and will be no more. Yeah. So at first blush because of you know, the serpent being there in the garden, it sounds like if you just sort of like took this on face value out of context, it might sound like this, you is the serpent or the devil, right? He’s talking about devil. And so like you the devil were there like in the garden.

(12m 42s):
But actually if you just back up 18 verses, eel 28 opens by saying the word of the Lord came to me, son of man stage, the ruler of tire. This is what the sovereign Lord says. And so that whole passage that you read is not directed at the devil, it’s directed at this king in at the time of Ezekiel. And like, so obviously it’s a callback to Genesis and it’s using like it’s playing with the imagery from the garden to talk about how this person is like bad. But it’s not talking about Satan, it’s talking about like an actual literal ruler. I mean, so this is like another one of those cases where like context matters both like if you like know the historical context of like what was going on at that time, but also if you just move, like scroll back up the page 18 verses, it tells you who this U is and it’s the U is not actually the devil.

(13m 37s):
So that’s one person. And then sometimes you might have heard Lucifer being one of the names for the devil. Do you know where that I like name comes from There. There is a, there is a passage that it’s like, And I saw Lucifer fall from heaven, but I don’t actually, yeah, Yeah, yeah. And I know it’s in the Hebrew scriptures, but I don’t actually know where it’s Good job. It comes from a certain passage in Isaiah 14, how you have fallen from the heavens, oh mourning star, son of the dawn, how you have been cut down to the earth, you who conquer the nations and Isaiah’s writing about the king of Babylon. Like again, this is like one of those things where it’s like Isaiah’s writing about the king of Babylon, but some Christians are like, no, actually this is the devil one.

(14m 22s):
It’s like very clearly not. And the person who was addressed as oh morning star is a reference to the planet of Venus, which at the time was like thought of as a, looked like a star and sometimes was called a star. And the Romans called Venus Lucifer, which means light bringer. And so that is how we got that because in the King James version it reads, oh, how are you falling from having Lucifer son of the morning? How you are cut down to the ground. So look at you Shay put that seminary degree to work. So that is a brief history of both like the actual appearances of the word Satan ha and has Satan in the Hebrew Bible and some of our misguided ideas about where Satan does or does not show up in making Hebrew scriptures.

(15m 14s):
And now let’s turn to the devil in the New Testament. What do you know about the devil showing up in the New Testament? Well, some folks have said that the devil shows up in the gospel of Luke when Jesus is in the wilderness, there are references right? To people being possessed that I think that’s where we get some of the Beelzebub stuff. And Jesus is like, and they accused Jesus of possessing people and he is like, that’s ridiculous.

(15m 56s):
House divided against itself cannot stand. And then I’m sure Paul makes some kind of references though, probably not as many as we think. And then I would assume that a lot of it comes from the book of Revelation. Great, great, great, great. So the word like the devil as opposed to like Satan is kind comes from Satan and Hasan from the keeper Bible, the devil comes from the Greek word diablos, which just gets translated as devil. That word appears 36 times in the Christian scriptures.

(16m 38s):
It’s usually about the devil, but it’s not always in first Timothy three 11 Diablos is translated as slanders. And in second Timothy three, three it’s translated as false accusers. And in both of those passage us, it’s like definitely talking about groups of humans, not actual like, not like a mythical devil. So like it’s again this, like this word has some nuanced meaning of an archetypal sort of evil figure and also just like literal people doing bad stuff, right? Like you, you are right.

(17m 19s):
Like it’s also de is also used in both Matthew and Luke when Jesus is in the wilderness. And then there’s also these like demons, right? That like are possessed by by that, that Jesus encounters. And I think like that’s really interesting because in Mark 15, in mark five, the collective name of the demons being driven out by Jesus’s actually Legion, which, And when we do our series on Mark, I got, I have a whole thing on the garrison demonic and the herd of pigs and it’s gonna be juicy. So stay tuned for that.

(18m 0s):
Yeah. And so some foreshadowing here that like yes, demon, but legion is also very clearly a nod to the Roman army and the Roman occupiers, right? And so this is one of those moments where you sort of are mixing political and religious language and using metaphor because like you can’t say we should drive out the Roman army, but but you can, you can drive out this like spiritual demon and it’s, but it’s not saying that our faith should not be political, it should only be spiritual. But that like we use spiritual metaphors to make political claims, which I’m so excited for your series, our series on Mark coming up next month.

(18m 50s):
But so this is another, another one of those moments where like there we, my my childhood Sunday school imagination of all of the demons that Jesus drove out, it was like literal demons that were sent from the devil. And the idea that it could actually be a very blatant political metaphor was like, like was never, was, never taught to me. But now looking at it, it’s like, oh, that’s definitely what this, what this is what’s happening here Happen. And it’s, it’s also a bit like, you know, our conversations about original sin, right? That it’s that we are born into systems that are unjust and like there is a, there is an element of this demon possession of like systems that we are a part of Yes.

(19m 43s):
That get into our heads Yes. That we have to fight against that, but that aren’t like literal demons that are but are systems. Yeah. But that have spiritual impact, right? I think that that’s important. Yeah. And I think it, this is a, a tricky part or like a a a complicated part to name, but it feels important that Jesus’ death in John’s gospel was sort of attributed to the Jews who can never attribute salvation because they are children of their true father, the devil in some translations is how it is put. And so like we just like need to name that like some parts of the Christian writings are like super anti-Semitic and Especially the gospel of John.

(20m 34s):
So like, let me just have a yeah. Rant about the gospel of John. It is not surprising to me that evangelical’s favorite gospel is the gospel of John. It is the latest of all of the gospels written though they will tell you that it’s the first that is incorrect. It’s the most theological and it’s the most antisemitic. And I think that like those three things are important. They’re intertwined and it’s like why evangelicals love the gospel of John. Yes. And I’m sure, And I do not, I’m sure we will get into Mark versus the other gospels next month. And then also, I believe it’s in May, we’re doing a whole month long series with rabbis and Jewish leaders and content creators, which we’ve already recorded some of them and it’s so good.

(21m 25s):
And a few of them sort of touch upon antisemitism within Christianity and what to do about that. So stay tuned. But one of the places that the devil quote unquote shows up is John accusing the Jews, the Jews of being children of the devil. And so last week we reference, we, I think I referenced the Carmen of the Carmen song about the the Champion. I’m, I’m also, I’m really sorry to anyone who wasn’t familiar with Carmen and who then watched that and or Googled Carmen and watched any of his other videos.

(22m 5s):
Just, I’m sorry. But so I think that on behalf of, I think that Carmen’s song sort of like symbolizes is indicative of an idea that Christian, some Christians, many Christians our childhood, but the adulthoods of lots of Christians have about sort of like what’s going on with God slash Jesus and the devil. And so can you sort of like summarize how the devil and God slash Jesus are sort of like, how do those relate to those figures? These like big archetypical figures like relate to each other cosmically? Yeah, I mean there’s this idea that like God and Satan are in a battle for the souls of people that Jesus’ death is the thing that will eventually put down Satan, but that like Satan is allowed to run rampant in the world.

(22m 57s):
And then also when, you know, we talked last week about the end times when the rapture and the end times come, Satan will be given even more power until finally Satan is bound and thrown into a pit for a thousand years and we have peace, but then Satan comes back again and then it’s Armageddon I think, and then, and then we like really get rid of Satan forever. But the, you know, the Carmen video was very much about like this boxing match almost between Jesus and Satan. So this idea that like Satan has a lot of power, but also that like, that’s with God’s permission, which always seemed a little sketchy to me now seems a real sketch.

(23m 45s):
And I do think, I think this is also another moment to say that I think so much of our conception of Satan comes from Christian pop culture. Like I’m thinking of Carmen right now, I’m thinking of Frank Pereti and all of his this present darkness books I’m thinking of, you know, the left Behind series. Yeah. Like all of these things that are like presumably amusing air quotes like based on scripture, but like aren’t Yeah, they’re, they’re just not. Yeah. So I think this idea of like the boxing match gets, gets pulled from, so in acts of the apostles, Luke makes the claim that even like Hades or shale, which we will get into next week when we talk about conceptions of hell could not hold the crucified Christ.

(24m 35s):
And in one Peter it says that Jesus made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits who disobeyed long ago. And also the gospel is preached even to those who are now dead. And so like by the second century, the church was sort of like starting to fill in the details of like what was going on between Good Friday when Jesus was crucified and Easter Sunday when he was resurrected and like, what about all of the righteous people of the past? Like what happens to ’em and how could they be saved if they had like, never had an opportunity to know Jesus? And so that’s where this idea came started to generate that like Jesus descended into hell and sort of like battled for the souls of the ones of the righteous down there.

(25m 24s):
And this is something that perhaps we’ll get into next week that we talk a little bit about in our workshop. You know, like why did Jesus die? Sort of different like theories of atonement, but like Christ is Victor, right? This idea that like Jesus like went down to hell to like bust us all out and had this, had this fight. Like I actually really love, it’s that idea of Christus Victor is like much older than Latino, substitutionary a atonement, which is basically like Jesus, we we’re supposed to be punished and slaughtered. Jesus stands in our place and Jesus got punished and slaughtered instead of us. And so like he’s our punishment substitute. And so the Chris’ Victor idea of like Jesus going and waging war on our behalf is to, to break it out is is older than penal substitutionary atonement.

(26m 12s):
And I kind of like, but also like, like this boxing match is maybe taking it a little to the extreme. And then when we get to Jude and Revelation, that’s where we really get to start to see these sort of like epic mythic i ideas about the devil that like maybe aren’t about the devil at all actually, but also a lot of our sort of like popular imagination of the devil gets pulled from stories and revelation. I know Shay you, I think you’re familiar with Revelation. Could you talk a little bit about Revelation?

(26m 52s):
Well, I mean it’s weird, right? Like, you know, there’s seven headed beasts rising. There’s a horror of Babylon, there’s Satan, there’s like the four horsemen. There’s Jesus riding in, there’s bloodshed like massive bloodshed up to like the bellies of horses, right? There’s all of this stuff and then we get at the end kind of a new, a new Jerusalem. And I think that like a lot of our conceptions both about the end times about what eternity will be like and about Satan all come from this text that is very much, it’s not a fortune, it’s not, it’s not a fortune telling text, right?

(27m 42s):
Yeah. And, and so like, but I think that we have this conception that, that this is a, this is a text that tells us what’s gonna happen in the future. That none of these things have happened yet, but they are like signs and way points that if we just watch Will will experience we’ll, we’ll see what what we’re gonna get. Yeah. So all the stuff that we’ve talked about thus far are a bunch of like scattered references from across lots of different books. The Serpent in the Creation story, these like metaphors talking about the king of tire, about like the Babylonian kings, about Ha Satan, about the Roman Empire, all this like weird mythical stuff that’s a lot of like allegory in in ju revelation.

(28m 30s):
And so it’s really easy for us to then like look at all of these like quote unquote like bad people, especially like when we’ve been told by people in power, like, oh, these are all the same person, but like that’s like not actually what the text says. The text never actually makes those connections. And so for all of the homophobic, transphobic, fundamentalist conservative Christians in our comments talking about how we’re doing like is of Jesus, which is like a, just like a doomed like fratty way of saying like, I don’t, I disagree with you, but trying to like make, use the language of academia to disagree is like reading your own sort of like interpretation into the text and sort of like making the Bible say quote unquote, like making the Bible say what you want it to say.

(29m 19s):
But really in order to connect all of these people, like the angel that gets in the way, like the adversary that gets in the way of the angel of the Lord in numbers Hasan who accuses a high priest in Zacharia like the Diablos who tempts Jesus in the wilderness. Like those are all three different characters and you have to decide, you have to decide to connect those if. And so I think like one of the points to note, right, is that like, well, where do these ideas come from? And I think like when we think about like what scripture it is and is doing, it’s sort of like the story like of the people of God trying to make sense of themselves and their place in the world and their relationship to God.

(30m 6s):
And like this there, it’s this like big looming question of like, why do bad things happen and like what motivates bad people? And so I think that that’s sometimes why we use these like metaphors to describe, you know, like the king of ti the king of Babylon. ’cause it’s like you’re, it’s just like what you’re doing is so terrible. Like it’s hard to imagine that like you’re still human, right? Or like to show my own like modern bias is like Donald Trump, right? Like how are you And I part of the same human family? Like there must be, it’s just like too, too big of words, you know? And so these are the ways that which Judaism and Christianity have sort of like wrestled with why you bad things happen.

(30m 49s):
You know, in Greek and Roman mythology there’s like a pan of gods like Buddhism, Hinduism, like various other religions sort of all get at the existence of bad things in their own way. But obviously that’s beyond the scope of this podcast. And so like I wanna share to sort of call back to maintenance phase, and you’re wrong about is like, one of the things that Michael Hobbes often says on maintenance phase is like specifically around like fat phobia and medical quote unquote, like medical science and stuff like that is what ideas are we already willing to believe and what biases allow us to take shortcuts and see things that aren’t really there and to not even bother to dig beneath the surface to see if there’s any evidence to support that claim.

(31m 43s):
And I think like while bad things happen, and so like these are the sort of our ideas about Satan and then evil, I think for many of us are sort of the biases that we come to and the things that we’re just sort of like unquestionably like willing to believe. And so this is I hope, an opportunity to begin to scratch beneath the surface a little bit and see like, is there actually evidence there? And when it comes to like biblical support, like there’s really not much evidence to support our ideas about Satan. We’re almost getting done.

(32m 24s):
I I do wanna say, yeah, you know, I, I think also the idea of Satan is really easy, right? It’s, And I, I think it’s especially why it, the idea of Satan is really appealing to evangelicals because it gives you this external force to blame things on, right? And so the this idea that, well, it’s Satan’s fault, like I can’t tell you how many times I heard that as a kid or you know, even this idea, even this idea in popular culture like the devil made me do it, right? It’s, it’s this idea of us being able to put off our own guilt and responsibility for things onto this other being that we can then blame and say, well, you know, not only like could we not help it, but also this like super, super powerful being did this to us or did this in the world or is causing these things.

(33m 21s):
And like when you take away the ability to do that, you’re faced with the fact that like, oh no, like sometimes I do really shitty things. Yeah. And that wasn’t Satan, like that was just me. And I have to like own up to that and make amends for that. And like that is much more challenging to both face emotionally, but also to like move through the world knowing that you are responsible for your own actions that you can’t blame some mythical being Ugh. Yeah, exactly. And so I think like as you’ve, as we’ve explored thus far, these ideas of sage and the devil that we sort of think of aren’t coming from the Bible necessarily.

(34m 5s):
And so where are they coming from? Shaa, like you made reference, like a lot of it’s coming from pop culture And I think it, it like comes a lot of, comes from modern pop culture that we’re just sort of all swimming around in. And I think our modern pop culture rather than actually drawing from the Bible draws a lot on medieval paintings and like medieval and colonial era literature, like the big ones are Inferno by Dante Paradise, Lost by John Milton and the Canterbury Tales by Jeffrey Chauser. And then more modern theologians like CS Lewis pull upon a lot of that to sort like make their case.

(34m 44s):
And then like that gets trickled down to us. It’s like, reminds me of that scene in the Devil Wears Prada where she’s got like the two different types of blue and it’s like, oh, you think you’re making a choice, but it’s like it’s not actually coming. The the origin isn’t the, the bible, the origin is like this medieval literature and paintings and they sort of like get money laundered down through the millennia and then like, then it gets presented to us as like it was a game of telephone. It was coming from the Bible. And so we just, I feel like we can’t talk about the, the devil without talking about screw tape, the Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis or just so, so big in the popular imagination.

(35m 25s):
And so in letter 22, toward the end of the letter screw tape goes through a transformation and it’s literally from Paradise Lost. Shay, can you, can you read it out? We will make the whole universe a noise in the end. We have already made great strides in this direction as regards to the earth. The melodies and silences of heaven will be shouted down in the end. But I admit we are not yet loud enough or anything like it. Research is in progress. Meanwhile you disgusting little here, the manuscript breaks off and is resumed in a different hand in the heat of composition.

(36m 8s):
I find that I have in inadvertently allowed myself to assume the form of a large centipede. I’m accordingly dictating the rest to my secretary. Now that the transformation is complete, I recognize it as a periodical phenomenon. Some rumor of it has reached the humans and distorted account of it appears in the poet Milton with the ridiculous edition that such changes of shape are a punishment imposed on us by the enemy. And I just like, I read this And I was like, I can’t believe I used to like think the CS Lewis was this like titan of faith, but he is like, oh, let me like, I don’t know, copy John Milton’s Paradise lock.

(36m 49s):
It’s also, it’s also very kafkaesque, right? With guy waking up as a cockroach. Like it, it feels very derivative of that as well. I don’t know what the timing is on that, but Yeah, I dunno either. But I also thought of Kafka and that and that as well. And also just like it reminds me that like it’s, yeah, CS Lewis is all sort of the Chronicles of Narnia. There’s something very sort of like juvenile about this whole story. And so it’s just sort of like CS Lewis not is like sort of like tipping his hand to like a lot of his ideas about Satan are coming not from the Bible but from John Milton and Paradise Laws. I’m like, yes, he’s critiquing it, but like you, he is also sort of like very much informed by it.

(37m 31s):
And so I just like want to go on a journey of representations of of the devil. We’ll put a link to all of these in the show notes for this episode, which you can find at Queer Theology dot com slash 4 2 4. Shay, can you describe to me what you are seeing? This is a mural by Florence and from the Florence Baptistry in 1260 by Kapo de Markal. We’ve got a horned being a naked horned male being with a, oh yeah, you could see his penis Half, Yes, half, half in and out of his mouth.

(38m 22s):
There’s like a two-headed snake coming out of his ears and he’s also maybe sitting on a two-headed snake, unclear if that’s part of his body or if he’s sitting on it. And all of the snakes are are eating the peoples. Yeah, it’s wild. And then I’m gonna send you another one Again. We’ve got a like partially horned but also maybe just funky ears, some fur on the face of this one, but also a face in the stomach area, talons on the feet, which are like standing on and gripping a human.

(39m 6s):
But then it’s also in like a, a mouth of a serpent like oh yeah. Faced guy Yeah. Is standing on a human and all of them are in the mouth of a, of a serpent. And then there’s a banner that says like inferno redemption, something else above, above the fuz fuzzy faced guy. Yeah. So this is some like medieval era imaginations of the devil. And then in the like 15 hundreds we start getting some propaganda that sort of like mixes the devil with some propagated What, what was going on sort of around the 15 hundreds.

(40m 4s):
I was homeschooled, my history is not great. You, you’re gonna have to help me out. Okay, so around then as the like church of as like the reformation was happening. Oh yes, We started to get some, some, some anti-Catholic propaganda. I wish you could see shade’s face right now. I don’t even know how to describe this. It’s like a, it’s a bird looking thing is the Satan figure, but like playing bagpipes that are made out of the pope’s head, I’m assuming, I’m assuming that’s a pope.

(40m 47s):
Yeah, well the pope or a mon priest. Yeah, something like that. That’s Excellent. Yeah. The the, like the Catholic church in this depiction is like a literal instrument of Satan, right? And so good times, good times. And so then we start to move on to a more like enlightened devil. You know, this is like where like John Milton sort of like a more complex portrait of Lucifer in the Paradise Lost. And so here’s like some enlightenment era. It’s like very much ripped eight pack white dude with arms up raised, right?

(41m 37s):
Like very human looking kind of ideal body type, ideal quote, unquote. Yeah. As, as, as Michael Hobbs would say, there’s just like a marketably attractive like the, the the type of body that you use to sell like shaving cream, right? Yes. And that also, this is William Blake’s depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost, like rallying his rebel angels from 1808. Like, he’s like, he’s, you know, he could be an Insta, right? Like he’s very fu attractive. And so I think like you, it’s really this progression. If you go to the, to, to the show notes of this episode, again, Queer Theology dot com slash 4 24, you’ll see like there’s real progression from like totally wild out there in the 12 hundreds.

(42m 31s):
And it starts to get more and more like we understand the devil today from going from this sort of like wild colors horns to this more sort of like fiery version to then this like version that is associated with like political enemies. And then finally to this sort of like cunning smart shapeshifting and can’t take any form, like sort of enlightened the devil. And I, I think about like other like really recent pop culture where it’s like Satan in a business suit, right? Like he’s a businessman with like a rich tailored suit and fancy cars and yeah.

(43m 14s):
Moves through skyscrapers, right? Like we’ve, that progression just keeps on going. Yeah. And so this is a little bit of for so, so Shea, I guess like what do we, what do we do with all of this that we’ve covered sort of like, okay, like, so this is like the history of Satan. This is like Satan in the Hebrew Bible, this is Diablo and the Christian Bible. This is sort of like our popular pop culture conceptions and where it all comes from, like, so cool, like now I’ve got all this data, right? Like what does this mean for us as like modern people at faith, sort of like going about our lives and our spiritualities?

(43m 57s):
Well, I mean, I think it’s really important. I I think this is why it’s so important to know your history, right? To understand how these different conceptions got passed down, where they came from, And I, and like what we talked about in the deconstruction series, like this is a moment to like hold each card up to the light and see what stands right? And to, and to also, like you said, instead of looking at Satan and the devil as like a full deck of cards, right? We have to look at these different cards are not necessarily connected, so we have to pull them apart.

(44m 42s):
And then I think it’s also about thinking through, okay, what purpose did each of these different ideas serve in their individual forms, right? Like, what was the author of Job trying to say? What is, you know, the book of the author of Revelation trying to say and do What was Milton and CS Lewis trying to do, right? Like, these are all, people are writing things because they’re trying to make a point. And I think we can examine what’s underneath the point and figure out if, if that holds for us without having to like believe in a conception of Satan in a boxing match with Jesus, right?

(45m 32s):
I, And I do think that this is a moment to say this package deal that we’ve been sold about Satan in our, specifically in our evangelical churches, but in other churches as well that was used to like scare us into towing the line is like not something that we have to be afraid of. Yeah. And just like, you know, I now, I can’t remember if it was on the podcast or inside of Sanctuary Collective, but talking about like original sin, right? As this package that I was taught that I, I ultimately found like mostly unsupported by scripture and kind of like uncompelling, but then sort of came back around to like, oh, but there are ways to understand original sin that do make sense.

(46m 16s):
Like systemic injustice. Systemic racism. Like, oh yeah, like this thing that happened before I was born that I had no control over, but that like, even at the moment of my birth, like impacted me and that I impacted and that like, while I didn’t like create it back in the day, I sort of end up with the responsibility to do something about it. I’m like, oh yeah, like that does work. And so you don’t have, like, this is a little bit of like what, when you were saying shit like examining each card and like what’s underneath it and like what are they trying to get at? And like finding, looking at the ways in which what they’re trying to get at is like antisemitism. Like maybe you wanna discard that deck, that card.

(46m 57s):
But there there are some things like what do we do with evil and where does it come from and how do we resist it? And there probably are some really powerful ideas in there. And then how does that affect your theology? And so to sort of underline that sort of thought right there, and to close us out, I’m gonna share a portion of a quote from Desmond Tutu’s book Made For Goodness, which he wrote in 2010, which I read, and it, it blew my mind. And it’s a longer quote that I, I think I’m gonna save part of either for the hell episode or for the eternal damnation episode. But, but I will start it. And so we’ll stop to keep looking to the series to find out the rest of the rest of this passage.

(47m 39s):
But this is from Desmond Tutu’s Meg for goodness, God’s Pursuit of the Sinner is a risky gamble, but it is not a futile one. God is no fool. God would not risk everything on a gamble that was doomed to fail. In fact, the early Christian theologian origin would maintain that the odds are in God’s favor and time is on God’s side. Origin believed that God’s love is so irresistible that heaven will ultimately win us all. He scandalized even his contemporaries by asserting that at the end of time, even Satan would abandon hell to worship God in heaven. And so I just love this idea of like even Satan, this medieval that there’s, there’s room in like God’s transformative love for all of us, but not that we, not that we get to stay in our prejudices and evil, that it transforms us, but that, like I think about, you know, in Sanctuary Collective recently someone was talking about like, well, what do we do about like, people who do really awful things, or I think about like, you know, Donald Trump or you know Fred Phelps, sort of like these people that are devils of our time.

(48m 44s):
And I think the question of what happens to the devil? What happens to the people who do really bad things? What happens to you and me? What happens to people who don’t pray to, to pray to God and accept Jesus? All of these questions are things that we will be addressing in hell and in eternal damnation. So stay tuned. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

(49m 25s):
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The post The Devil and His Many Names appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• Isaiah 58 calls for justice and community care.
• Personal faith should reflect how we treat others.
• Communal restoration is a key aspect of faith.
• Revisiting scripture can lead to personal growth.
• Navigating privilege is essential in faith discussions.
• Sabbath is a time for rest and reflection.
• Imagining a better world is crucial for progress.
• Articulating a collective dream is necessary for change.
• Community support is vital for individual growth.
• Engagement with scripture fosters deeper understanding.

Chapters

(02:59) Personal Reflections on Faith and Justice
(06:02) The Communal Nature of Faith
(09:12) Revisiting Scripture: Growth and Reflection
(12:07) Navigating Privilege and Safety
(14:49) The Importance of Sabbath and Rest
(18:04) Imagining a Better World
(21:03) Articulating Our Collective Dream
(24:00) Conclusion: Community and Next Steps

Resources:

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis to Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

(2m 49s):
Hello, Hello, Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’re gonna go back to our roots yet again, and we’re gonna queer a passage from scripture. Today we’re gonna be looking at Isaiah 58, the whole chapter. Shay’s gonna read it for us in just a moment from the common English Bible. If you would like to pull up your Bible and read along, we would love to have you otherwise. Here is Isaiah 58. Shout loudly. Don’t hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Announce to my people, their crime, the house of Jacob, their sins. They seek me day after day, desiring knowledge of my ways, like a nation that acted righteously, that didn’t abandon their God. They ask me for righteous judgements, wanting to be close to God.

(3m 30s):
Why do we fast? And you don’t see why afflict ourselves, and you don’t notice yet on your fast day, you do whatever you want and oppress all your workers. You quarrel and brawl, and then you fast. You hit each other violently with your fists. You shouldn’t fast as you’re doing today. If you wanna make your voice heard on high. Is this the kind of fast I choose? A day of self affliction, of bending one’s head, like a read and of lying down in morning clothing and ashes? Is this what you call a fast day acceptable to the Lord? Isn’t this the fast I choose? Releasing wicked restraints and tying the ropes of a yolk, setting free the mistreated and breaking every yolk, isn’t it sharing your bread with the hungry and bringing the homeless poor into your house, covering the naked.

(4m 14s):
When you see them and not hiding them and not hiding from your own family, then your light will break out like the dawn and you’ll be healed quickly. Your own righteousness will walk before you and the Lord’s glory will be your rear guard. Then you’ll call and the Lord will answer. You’ll cry for help. And God will say, I’m here. If you remove the yoke from among you, the finger pointing, the wicked speech, if you open your heart to the hungry and provide abundantly for those who are afflicted, your light will shine in the darkness and your gloom will be like the no. The Lord will continually, the Lord will guide you continually and provide for you even in parched places. He will rescue your bones. You’ll be like a watered garden, like a spring of water that won’t run dry.

(4m 57s):
They will rebuild ancient ruins on your account and foundations of generations past. You’ll restore, you’ll be called mender of broken walls, restore of lable streets. If you stop trampling the Sabbath, stop doing whatever you want on my holy day and consider the Sabbath of the Lord honored and honor it. Instead of doing things your way, seeking what you want and doing business as usual, then you will take delight in the Lord. I will let you ride on the heights of the earth. I’ll sustain you with the heritage of your ancestor, Jacob. The mouth of the Lord has spoken. Oh, amen. This is the word of the Lord.

(5m 38s):
Oh, I love this passage. Yeah, it really brings me back this passage, or at least part of this passage, my first or second year in New York City. I observed lent for the first time, and every day on my lunch break, I would sneak away from my office job in my cubicle, And I would go to a nearby church And I would sit in the back pew. It was like it was open to the public, but like there weren’t services happening. And I would read the psalms and the prophets And I, I think that I like almost every day read a portion of this passage, if not the whole passage. And like the, is this, isn’t this the fast I chose releasing wicked restraints, untying the ropes of a yoke, setting free, mistreated, and breaking every yoke.

(6m 20s):
I would read at least that if not the whole passage, like every, every day. ’cause you know, lunch is a fasting holiday, I guess you would call a holiday. And so like, sort of like recentering, like this is the type of fast, right? And I remember being like, I was relatively newly out. I’d probably been out for, I don’t know, four or five years, And I was recently outta college And I was just sort of like, oh, it’s like so freaking hard to be queer and everyone is against us and the church misunderstands us and they’re focused on all of the wrong things and like, this is what we should care, But we should care about justice. And I remember being like, I am one of the oppressed and like God wants the yoke of my oppression to be broken.

(7m 5s):
And I do also remember being like, And I get to partner in other types of justice work to break other types of oppression. But like that the church, the church quote unquote, like writ large was sort of like missing the mark. And so I remember being really inspired by this and, and, but like sort of like schooled by a, like a righteous indignation sort of away. So I, this like really takes me back And I’m, it’s interesting now all these years later to see things I didn’t quite catch the first time around. Yeah. I, I love, I love this passage. I mean, the first part I like, the first response is always I read this And I’m like, are are evangelicals just like not reading scripture?

(7m 49s):
Like I don’t understand because I think about like how my church growing up would’ve interpreted this passage and it would’ve been, I mean, a, a shit show, but like Right, It, it would’ve been like, well then you just need, you’re, you’re doing too much on Sunday, right? That is the message that they would read, they would take out of this passage of like, you have to like honor the quote unquote Sabbath better and like, Go to Church more, which is like the total opposite of what this passage is saying, which is like, part of what you’re doing wrong is you’re like being a dick on the like the most holy day.

(8m 30s):
So like, get it together. But I’m, I’m so struck by how, once again, like how communal these, these prophetic texts are and how, and so many of the texts and scripture, like it’s not about me and my personal relationship with the divine. It’s like how am I treating my, am I treating the most marginalized in the mi in my, how am I treating people who are and who are without housing? And like that is the measure by which my and my religiosity.

(9m 13s):
Like that’s, that’s the yardstick, right? It’s not about like, did I fast and do my quiet time and go to church? It’s like how am I treating the people around me? And I think that this is such, also such a, one of my favorite parts of this, of this whole passage is, is verse 12, which is you’ll be called member of broken walls and restore of liberal of livable streets. And like this idea that for folks that are following in this way of justice, that like we will be the ones that will restore our communities, right?

(9m 56s):
It’s, it’s not just this sense of, I don’t know, personal piety. It’s this beautiful sense of communal restoration. And, And I think about like, we see this echoed in the Christian scriptures of like, they will know you are Christians by your love, which is so, it’s such a trite thing now. And now of course there are like tons of people who are saying yes. And the way that I tell people I love them is like by telling them their lives are sinful and that they’re like gonna, hell yeah. Right? And it’s, but it’s like no, like where, where is, where is the actionable good and care of community in the way that you’re living?

(10m 38s):
And, and this idea of restore of livable streets and member of walls in like, I I’m sure that you see this in the urban spaces that you’re living in. I see it in the rural spaces that I live in. Houses that are falling down streets that are, are in disarray. Like what does it look like to show up in a community and help rebuild and in and rebuild in a like life giving way, not in a gentrifying pricing out the poor people kind of way. Yeah. This is like, this is really taking me on a trip to memory lane.

(11m 20s):
This is why I love revisiting passage us of scripture over and over again throughout the years that like to, to read this passage that was so that I read in sort of the early days of my like queer, progressive faith life. Probably like the midpoint of my actual life, but like the early days of like my queer faith life and then to just come back to it now. Well, I’m old like, I don’t know, 15 years later, right? Like I think that if I was reflecting back on like my adult life since, since when I first like observed that for the first time, I think I would be like, oh, I think that there’s sort of like a solid core through line of my faith that has stayed like largely the same.

(12m 1s):
Like it definitely shifted a lot from when I was an evangelical to an adult. But like there then I sort of like settled into like, I’m a queer person of faith. I’m justice oriented. And like that has sort of like been consistent and the particularities of that maybe have changed in one, in one big way obviously, but like in general it feels like fairly consistent. And also I’m looking back and realizing that that’s like maybe not true. That I, maybe I like didn’t realize the ways in which my faith has shifted over time. ’cause I’m just like taken back to tho those pews and like, I really needed like the, the faith that sort of like got me free from oppression was like this, like righteous indignation.

(12m 44s):
They’re doing it wrong, tear it all down. Like I am seeing clearly I’m the oppressed. Like this is comfort to me. And in many ways that’s just like, that’s still true. But I think over the years I’ve, I’ve also began as I’ve become more certain in my faith as I become less and then not at all scared of God, I am more and more able to see conviction of myself in scripture and like, not in a shame inducing way, but just sort of a like calling me to a higher and better version of myself in a, a more inclusive and just community that we could be a part of.

(13m 25s):
So like, And I begin to shift from always having to be the victim in the story to sometimes maybe I can be the one that’s being challenged. And And I think that that then has like obviously like it’s good to be less shitty for the people who were, you were, who were, who were like maybe being shitty too, or it’s good to, you know, confront white supremacy for like, because of the targets of white supremacy. But, and also like in doing so, it like enriches my own life. And so like as I’ve been able to gently with my speech, I myself, but also allow my faith to convict me and not only not always comfort me, that also sort of paradoxically has enriched my faith and like then comforted me some more in the end.

(14m 16s):
So like that’s like one thing that I’m noticing that like, I think that I really needed to heal from being scared of God in order to see conviction in scripture, but like as I’ve done so it sort of does made my vision for like the way that the world could be even bigger. And, and then I, there’s like something about this like sabbath that I had had not noticed and that I’m noticing in a different way. Like perhaps unsurprisingly now that I’m Jewish, which I can talk more about, but I I that feels like a separate thought. So I’ll I’ll pause for now. Yeah, I I think that that’s like so, so important that there’s, there’s a nuance here, right? Because like queer and trans folks are marginalized and oppressed and especially like in the US as we’re recording this, like, it’s, it’s a scary time.

(15m 4s):
And, and also like I, something that I’ve been wrestling with a lot myself lately is that like as someone who is white and male presenting and like moves through the world with certain amounts of passing privilege, right? That there is, there are ways in which it’s not always, I have to, I have to be careful that I’m not always claiming safety when or claiming to be unsafe when in reality like I’m just uncomfortable and like, where are the lines in which I’m actually not at risk And I should be standing up or I should be putting myself on the line.

(15m 47s):
And like, where are the ways in which, no, this is actually an unsafe setting. And so like blending in or like choosing to be silent in that moment, like is, is a matter of, of safety and like, and how do I, how do I discern the difference and how do I like get, how do I even get comfortable being uncomfortable and, and potentially being unsafe when my safety is not the most important in a, in a particular room that I might be in. And I think that like, that has also been one of my journeys with scripture of like, where are the places, like you were saying, where I need to take comfort from the text, where I need to feel held, where I need to feel like God is on my side and, and gonna smite my enemies.

(16m 40s):
And where the places where like I need to maybe be smoking, right? Like not, not in a, not in a giant way, but in a, like a kick in the ass. Get yourself in gear, be a better achievement kind of way. And I, And I think that like there is right, that that’s like complicated. It’s not, there are no all of the time or easy answers. And I think that part of that is like growing in our faith and our maturity and our, both of our reading, but also our, our living And like you like, that is one of the reasons that I love revisiting texts and continuing to engage and to wrestle with and to grapple with scripture and tradition and community because like that is where growth happens Falls here.

(17m 30s):
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(18m 18s):
See se for details. Yeah. All, all of that. And so I mentioned like a little a moment ago that like this, this thing about the Sabbath trampling, the Sabbath stuck out to me in a way that maybe it didn’t before. And I, I think like, like you, my evangelical church would’ve like read it through the lens of like, the problem is is you’re not reading the Bible and you’re not coming to church on Sundays. And so then I I sort of would’ve been like, well that’s wrong And I would’ve like rejected that or maybe I even would’ve been like, oh, like observing the Sabbath is sort of like a legalistic practice that it was sort of, and Jesus did away with that and we don’t need that sort of thing anymore. And I would’ve used legalistic in a negative way.

(19m 1s):
And now as like a Jew who has sort of like taken on Jewish law and the whole like legal system and culture in addition to it, like a faith set of practices. I think that there actually, there’s like something about the Sabbath, it reminds me of all the stuff that we talk about like religious ritual and pr and spiritual practices that like, it’s not enough to keep the Sabbath, right? It just in the same way it’s like, it’s not enough to fast if you, if you are only fasting from food, right? And you’re not breaking the chains of injustice, like it’s a, it’s a fast that, that God is not interested in. Amos talks about like, I I hate, I despise religious festivals, right?

(19m 45s):
Like we’re, it’s clear in both the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures that like faith has to be a practice as well as sort of like religious piety. And also like there’s something about not trampling on the Sabbath and like honoring it and delighting in it that, you know, Jewish Jewish theology holds that, like on Shabbat you sort of get a glimmer of like the way that the world could be in sort of like the new world. And it reminds me of a little bit about what you were talking about, Shay you’ve reflected back to me that when I go to Fire Island for vacation with my queer chosen family, like yes, it’s a vacation.

(20m 28s):
And yes, also now it’s become sort of like a tradition and so it’s meaningful because we do it over and over again with these people that we care about. And also there’s like something about the particularities of fire island and the ways in which the queer people that I know like relate to one another on that island that it’s sort of like, oh, this is like a vision of the way that the world could be outside of the island as well. And so like there’s something about like you, it’s like a yes and like you can’t be just sort of like in go, go, go, go, go mode all the time. You need to rest. I think that the Sabbath is a weekly rhythm of resetting and resting and imagining like the way the world could be so that then you can go mend the broken walls and restore the livable streets.

(21m 12s):
But you sort of have to have like, you have to have a vision in mind about what you’re building. I think it sort of, here here’s where I got to right? That it’s like, it’s like not enough to just be like, the evangelicals are wrong. Donald Trump is not a real Christian. Like Sean Floyd is like terrible and an asshole and focus on the family is garbage. Like yeah. Like all those things are true. Like, but like we’re not like them. They’re like they’ve got it wrong. Like can’t be the beginning and the end of your beliefs about the way that the world is. Like what is your vision for the way that the world could be? And like in Judaism, like Shabbat is sort of like one of the times that we use to like recenter and refocus on that.

(21m 56s):
But like all religious traditions have practices by which you could reorient yourself. I mean, I think like communion and Christianity is like another sort of beautiful practice of, we talk about this in our rituals for resistance and resilience workshop, like remembering the body and like reorienting sort of our positionality in the world that like it’s, for me it’s like a yes and like making sure that I’ve moved towards a theology that says like, I’m not just going to be reactive, but I’m going to, I’m going to re And I’m not just gonna, I’m not just gonna like shake my fist or I’m not just gonna quote tweet to dunk on people, but I’m going to restore livable streets and men broken walls and create the kingdom of God on earth as in heaven.

(22m 46s):
Or like, as you would say, like the world to come. Yeah. I I think that’s so huge, especially in this moment, right? In this moment, yeah. Where everything is like sliding to shit and Yeah. And they’re so, I don’t know, I, there’s just, I I’m watching the political moment and watching who we’re championing and it’s concerning for lots of reasons. But like the biggest one is that it just feels like there is so little prophetic imagination.

(23m 27s):
And by that I don’t mean like a diagnoses of what’s wrong. Like I I think we have a really good sense of what’s wrong. I think like every single person can feel in their very narrow and being what’s wrong. And we even maybe have a sense of like, sense what would make it better. But I don’t know that we have a collective vision of like the kind of community we wanna live in and then have it like where is our communal dream of safety and goodness and celebration and art and collective care and all of these things.

(24m 9s):
And it’s like, I I think that’s, you And I talk all the time about the gifts that queerness and ethical, non-monogamy and transness have to offer. And I think that they absolutely have gifts to offer in this present moment. And, and one of the things right, is like a vision of a world, a way of being that we’ve been told shouldn’t exist, But we have proved over and over again that it does, right? Because we exist. And so in the midst of that, like where are, where, where can we lean even harder into that and say, what could our collective future look like and stop?

(24m 55s):
And I say this as like, I’m indicting myself as I say this too, right? There’s a lot of ways of, of which it’s, it’s easy to say, well, the dream is this obviously, but like that could never happen because right, because like X, Y, Z because we don’t have the money, because we don’t have the time, because we don’t have the power, because we don’t have the yada, yada yada. And I think that there’s like a yes and right there is a way in which we form coalitions that are practical and also in the midst of the practicality, if we don’t have the audacious dream, the like, what would we do and who would we be if it didn’t matter about the money or the politics or the coalitions or the whatever.

(25m 45s):
Like I don’t feel like we have articulated well what that is. And like that’s, that’s something that I am, I’ve really been thinking about for myself lately and like in my communities of like, what is the dream? And then we can talk about like, how are we gonna get there, you know? But if without the dream, we don’t even have, we don’t even have the beginning of the, of the steps. Yeah. Amen. All of that. I, I find myself wanting to like wrap up the episode with like a boat or like, and here is like, here are your like Buzzfeed listicle three next steps to do.

(26m 24s):
And like, I don’t have that, I’m so sorry dear listener, but I think like, maybe like the first, what I, what I can share for like things that have worked for me is like paying attention to all of this is like, I think like step one, right? And then like what are the practices that you can do to sort of help stretch your imagination for the way that the world could be? How can you, like what practices can you do? Just sort of like stretch yourself for the ways in which like you personally could be differently. Where do you take inspiration from? And like this work is impossible, impossible, impossible, impossible to do it alone.

(27m 6s):
And so like, who are you in community with and like, living alongside of? And that can be a combination of in person and online. And so like thinking through all those things, maybe we’ll sort of like move you in the right direction. And of course, as always, if like these are sort of like questions you want to like wrestle together with, we would love to have you inside of sanctuary collective or online community. You can learn more at Queer Theology com slash community. And if you’re like interested in like one-on-one sports direction or like coaching or anything like that, reach out and we’ll talk to you more about that. But Sanctuary Collective Community is a great place to start. We’d love to have you inside of there. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

(27m 53s):
To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

The post Queering Isaiah 58: Communal Restoration and Justice appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• The book is about polyamory and spirituality.
• It addresses love in all its forms, not just romantic.
• Spirituality is a key theme in understanding relationships.
• The book aims to celebrate connections beyond monogamy.
• Brian emphasizes the importance of pre-orders for authors.
• Polyamory is often misunderstood as solely about sex.
• The book is for both monogamous and non-monogamous readers.
• Brian shares personal experiences with queerness and spirituality.
• The book includes a reading about finding God in community.
• Brian hopes the book will serve as a healing balm for readers.

Chapters

(01:17) Exploring the Essence of the Book

(04:57) The Role of Spirituality in Relationships

(08:24) Reading Excerpt: The Polyamorous God

(13:11) Dreams and Aspirations for the Book

(15:43) The Gifts of Polyamory

(21:15) Addressing Skepticism Towards Polyamory

(24:26) Logistics and Upcoming Events

Resources:

• Get Brian’s book, Love Beyond Monogamy: How Polyamory Can Enrich Your Spirituality, Faith, and Relationships
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to The Queer Theology Podcast. This is a conversation I have been very much looking forward to because today we are gonna talk all about Brian’s new book, Love Beyond Monogamy, which comes out on September 18th. So as you are listening to this, if you’re listening to it the day it comes out or around the day it comes out, there is still time to pre-order.

(55s):
And I, I just wanna say, I, I know we’ve said this a million times, we’re gonna keep saying pre-orders are so, so, so, so important, especially for books from marginalized authors. So if you even feel like you might have the most passing of interest In this book, go and pre-order it, it would also be great if you could recommend that your local library picks up a copy. And also that your local bookstore stocks it. We love supporting indie bookstores, so order it from there. And today we’re gonna, we’re gonna kind of dive into to talking about this book. So Brian, I wanna start with probably every author’s worst nightmare of a question, which is like, if you had to describe this book in just a couple of sentences for folks that maybe this is the first time they’re hearing about it, they don’t really know what it’s about.

(1m 47s):
Like what is this book and who do you think it’s for? Yeah, when I stood out to write the book, I set out to write a book about polyamory in spirituality, And I called it Love Beyond Monogamy. And then when I finished the book, so then in my mind I was, I was sort of like focusing on like the beyond monogamy part of it. And then when I finished the book, I realized that it was like, yes, about like filter through the lens of polyamory, non monogamy, but it was really a book about love and all of the different ways in which love can be present in our lives. And so this is a book not just for non monogamous audiences folks, but for monogamous audiences folks as well. And it’s a book not just for spiritual or religious folks, but for non-religious folks as well.

(2m 32s):
It’s really a way, sort of like pulling upon the wisdom of both polyamory and spirituality to look at the ways in which like all of our various relationships and connections in our lives past, present, and future can be deeply meaningful. The word that I would use for that as like sacred, but you can use whatever word sort of resonates for you. And so honoring, you know, long-term commitments, but also honoring one night stands and casual encounters and not feeling like we have to cut off ourselves from our exes or, or draw divisions between friend and family. And sort of like booking, just like letting love be bigger than you imagined. Hmm.

(3m 13s):
And you know, there have been a lot of books, it seems coming out right around now, polyamory and non-monogamy, and I’m, I’m curious, you know, what, what you think sets your book apart. Like why is your book different from what is has already been published? And you know, we’ve seen some glimpses at at stuff that is coming out and I’m, I’m curious how, how you think your book is set apart. Yeah, I think there’s two ways. One of the big ways is, it’s sort of a cliche in polyamory nom monogamy circles to say, you know, you might be thinking when you hear polyamory nom monogamy, you might be thinking all about sex parties and throuple like, and it, it’s like, it’s really not about sex.

(3m 55s):
It’s about shared calendars and processing lots of feelings and, and all of that. And like, yeah, that can be part of it, but like, it also is for many people a lot of the time also about sex. And so this book like does not shy away from the reality that like sex is for many people a part of the nonmonogamous experience, but not in a like salacious way. It says that also the sex is also special, the sex is also sacred and all the different ways that folks form family and friendship and community and Relationships to partnerships, like they can all be special. And so it’s sort of looking at, it’s a very sort of like sex positive, king conclusive version of non monogamy.

(4m 43s):
And then of course, like, it just like touches upon spirituality. Er Winston, one of the hosts of the multi podcast and in author like in her own right in her sort of like review of the book, she, she pointed out that most books sort of like dance around the topic of like religion or spirituality. And this sort of obviously deals with it head on. And I really try to make it such that if you’re like a devoutly religious person, you’re like a devout Christian, like this book is gonna resonate with you. And if you’re like, no, no, I’m spiritual but not religious, I think this I’ve, you know, it’ll also be applicable to you. And even if you’re like decidedly like a secular humanist or an atheist, the way that I talk about religion and spirituality is such that I think you’ll find resonances there as well.

(5m 24s):
And so it’s, it’s really about not just, it’s like not a practical how to do polyamory, but the sort of a celebration of all the different ways that all of our different types of connections can be like deeply meaningful. And so it’s a celebration of, of love and connection in all its various forms. Why, why was it important for you to, to pull on this thread of, of spirituality in the book? I mean, for me as a queer man, I know that my queerness was like so stigmatized growing up. It felt like such a point of shame and a place where I didn’t fit in. And I at some point sort of intellectually knew that that wasn’t true, but sort of knowing something in your head and feeling it in your body or two different experiences and it took me a long time to get to a place where I like knew in my body that queerness was good.

(6m 18s):
And I had a similar experience all over again when it came to non-monogamy where I sort of like, I had read the books about like how to do it And I like read the research about, you know, the existence of non-monogamy in other animals and humans, other human societies. And so I sort of intellectually knew that monogamy could be like a good and ethical thing, but it was like easy to sort of like feel like I wasn’t living up to society’s expectations. The gay movements like gay, you know, the gay lesbian movements like ideal of what a gay relationship is supposed to look like, that might me, maybe I was missing out on something or I just like had internalized a lot of the messages from our mono normative culture. And so then again, sort of the distinction between knowing something in my head and feeling in my body, it took a little bit of time to get there.

(7m 3s):
And I think that for me, pulling on this like thread of faith, spirituality, religion is not about like trying to against people that you can be polyamorous and go to church. So like obviously you can be polyamorous and go to church. I know lots of church calling polyamorous people, including the increasing number of, of polyamorous like pastors and and rabbis. But for me it was about like taking all of those messages that told me the ways that I was forming relationships were less than, and not just not only rejecting those but replacing like proactively replacing those with positive messages that celebrated the special gifts that nom brought into my life. And by calling that deeply meaningful and particularly special And I think like sacred is just like another snappy way of saying that, you know, Paul Tillek talks about God as being one’s ultimate concern.

(7m 59s):
He was a Christian, writer, researcher, academic, and Rabbi Arab Joshua Heschel talks about awe and wonder and radical amazement being sort of at the heart of a spiritual person’s orientation towards the divine. And so like that’s the type of faith and spirituality that I’m getting at that like the divine is already present in and amongst the ways that we love and fuck. And like really honoring that was a key part of like believing in my body like, oh no, this is not just like a good thing, like an okay thing, but an actually like a good thing and a positive way of relating. Okay, before we go any further, I’m wondering, Brian, would you read a portion of the book for us to give people a taste of, of what this book is like?

(8m 44s):
Yeah, sure. Let me find a spot. Oh actually there is a spot that talks actually about sort of God and what God is or is not and and sort of maybe we’ll tie into the conversation that we just were having. So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll read that section. This is from the chapter called The Polyamorous God. Whenever I’m at a dance club with my queer friends, I like to take a break and grab some water and fresh air. When I return to the dance floor before jumping back into the action, I linger a little on the edge, I gaze out on the floor and spot my friends. They’re dancing not just with their partners but also with their friends. I watch them shower each other with physical affection, hugs and kisses, winks and nods, silly faces and singing along pinch cheeks even making out casually they throw their arms around each other and hugs and embraces while they ebb and flow.

(9m 28s):
Dancing in a circle, grinding against each other, weaving in and out, finding new friends to hug and sing along with and even to kiss. If you squint your eyes just right, you can see the Holy Spirit right there on the dance floor of a queer club. In these moments, my intense focus on my friends and the strangers who fill the dance floor, my intentional remembering of all the people who have danced to music just like this for ages and ages, my appreciation for just how precious it is that we can live and dance and flirt queerly and nom monogamously in public safely. It is awesome. I am full of awe. I have this intuitive sense that I could see God on the dance floor of queer clubs for years before I read the works of Abraham Joshua Heschel for Heschel, our perception of awe and wonder are deeply intertwined, synonymous even with our experience of the divine.

(10m 12s):
And I asked for wonder, a spiritual anthology he wrote And I quote awe as an intuition of the dignity of all things. A realization that things are not only what they are, but also stand however remotely for something supreme awe as a sense of transcendence for the reference everywhere to a mystery beyond all things. It enables us to perceive in the world intimations of the divine, to sense the ultimate and the common and the simple to feel in the rush of the passing, the stillness of the eternal. What we cannot comprehend by analysis we become aware, become aware of in awe. And I don’t know how to define the nature of God. I can’t put God in a bottle or under a microscope. I can’t measure God with a machine. Would it be like the ones the scientist, the Scientologists use?

(10m 55s):
Surely not. There’s nothing in what we know about the universe and we know a lot even there was, even though there’s a lot we don’t understand to suggest that there is a conscious outside entity that interferes in our affairs to bend or break the laws of nature to guide the course of human affairs. God did not give you that touchdown or clear skies on your wedding day or save your ant from cancer. And if God did, what would it say? But all the people who didn’t make the touchdown, who had rain on their wedding day, who died from cancer, but I meet God on the dance floor every time I go to a queer queer club. Many of my friends say that God helped rescue them from clutches of devastating addiction. I, by myself am not God. I have stood on protest lines, had vigil held vigils and gone toe to toe with a virulently anti L-G-B-T-Q, religious leaders to proclaim the good news of the queer gospel.

(11m 41s):
And I felt something in my bones. Jesus says in Matthew 18 that where two or more three are gathered, there he is. Two, when people believe in something together and come together for a common cause, something happens that is greater than the sum of its parts, something divine happens in community. I don’t believe that there’s a conscious force outside the universe bending to its will, bending it to its will. And yet I believe that quote, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice and quote as Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Said, paraphrasing Theodore Parker, not because an outside force bends it, not because it must bend, but because we bend it. I believe that love wins and justice prevails not because of puppet master on high decrees that it must, but because something in our very nature is primed for love and justice.

(12m 27s):
Because something that you can feel even if you can’t quite measure happens when humans come together, when we help each other, when we do what is right, when we are willing to sacrifice for a higher cause, whatever that is, that connection, that longing, that energy, that urge, that which draws us outside of ourselves, that which courses through us with the same energy that is spent of coursing through the universe since the Big Bang, that which is much like light, which is somehow both a particle and a wave. Two things at once. It is exactingly precisely physical right down to the atoms that make us up. And it is also completely unmeasurable, but no less real spiritual, we might say. That is what humans have throughout the ages have called God.

(13m 9s):
And I believe that God is within and among us and for us. Beautiful. Thank you for, for sharing that. I’m curious what your kind of biggest dream is for this book. Oh, what a question. I mean, some total stranger on Good Reads left a review and part of it said, Murphy’s writing is to love what the ethical slut is to sex a paradigm shifting classic. And I am honored and humble that some stranger that I don’t know thinks that.

(13m 52s):
And so like I, if I like, I just wanted to reach everyone who needs to hear it. I think that that in a world that is increasingly torn apart and fractured and fragmented, I would like this book to be a healing bomb that says we are stronger together. And like that is yes, about like the ways in which we relate sexually and romantically to one another. But for me the book is like not just about sex and Relationships, it’s really about drawing the circle wider and imagining a love that is bigger and that encompasses our friends and our neighbors and our coworkers.

(14m 38s):
One in one part of the book I I talk about like, I think that polyamorous polys are really sort of beautiful models of communal care and community and mutual aid and support and like the way we sort of take care of partners, of partners, of partners is like really beautiful. And also if we only limit that to people that we want to have sex with and the people that we wanna have sex with, want to have sex with, we just end up reproducing desirability politics and racism and sexism and pat phobia and, and wines that divide us. And so I would like to sort of take all of the best practices from polyamory and merge those together with all the highest ideals of faith and spirituality.

(15m 21s):
And I think that together that phone forms like a potent elixir that it, like I would like to sort of transform all of our communities and to sort of not be, to learn to practice taking care of one another, to learn to feel hard feelings, uncomfortable feelings and not be overcome by them. And that is like a practice that serves you when you’re like thinking about your partner sleeping with another person. And it also is a practice that serves you when you’re thinking about like the coworker that’s annoying you, that it’s also a practice that serves you. Like when you see a person who is unfamiliar and not like you on the street corner and you decide to be trusting rather than afraid. And so like, yeah, I think I would like it to transform the ways in which that we relate to ourselves and our sexual romantic partners, but also I think I would like it to sort of cast, cast a bigger vision for like the way of the world to be.

(16m 13s):
Yeah. I I feel like you And I have always said that our work from the very beginning was was about like what gifts, queerness, and transness have to offer the church in the world, right? That it’s, that it’s always been about focusing on that giftedness and also I I am struck by like queerness and transness and polyamory shouldn’t just be about like what non-queer and non-trans and non poly people can get out of it, right? Like, and so I I I think that there’s a, there’s a line here that we’re walking with this conversation even about like there’s so many gifts, right?

(16m 54s):
That that poly lives and loves have to offer and teach non non-poly folks. And, but I’m curious about like, can you talk just, just for a minute about like what I don’t know the cel celebration of, of like polyamory, like you’ve already hinted at this, but, but it’s been about like, well it’s it’s about more than just that, but so I like just yeah, sell us, sell us on polyamory for a minute, I guess. Yeah. So I think that like all of what I just said, I think also applies to non-monogamous folks because I think sometimes it’s easy for us even as we practice non monogamy to still internalize all the things that the world has said about us.

(17m 36s):
Yeah, I’m thinking about like in my coaching practice, I work with a lot of people who are in the process of opening up a like existing up until now monogamous audiences relationship. And I often hear from them is like, we just want an open relationship. We don’t want polyamory that like polyamory feels scary And I understand where it comes from. It comes from this place of like somehow polyamory when you add in like feelings feels like threatening to the existing relationship or they imagine polyamory means I have to have another co-equal partner and that that is like somehow a demotion of the existing partner or, or whatever it might be, right?

(18m 18s):
And then like they’ll be going at it for a while and it’s like, oh, well you’ve been hooking up with the same person somewhat consistently for like six months now. Like presumably you have, you’re not a sociopath. Like you have like some amount of feelings for this person, right? That like the line between just an open relationship and polyamory is actually quite blurry. Like what is the difference between someone that you hook up with a friend with benefit and like a partner, lover, boyfriend, spouse, right? It’s really all about how you choose to describe yourself in your relationships. And so like I’m not here to like force anyone to use the word polyamory to describe themselves, but in one of the opening lines of the book, I say at it’s roots polyamory comes from a Greek and a Latin root Paul, meaning many Anne Marie, meaning loves many loves.

(19m 6s):
We all have had many loves. Like even if you’re monogamous audiences, like most people have had at least one romantic relationship before the one that they’re presently in. Certainly if you include non types of romantic love, like we already all have lots of different types of love. And so part of the book is saying like, you don’t have to be scared of the connections that fall outside of sort of your one and only. And if you’re someone who is in a couple a diad that that is like meaningful to you. I’m not, I’m not here to sell you on suddenly becoming being in a triad and if you’re monogamous audiences, I’m not gonna to sell you on becoming polyamorous. But I think that there is like some value in loosening up those distinctions between there’s like me and my one and only and it’s us against the entire rest of the world and saying like, what happens if I honor all of these other connections in my life, life as meaningful?

(19m 60s):
Even if it’s like we are kinky hookups and we meet once a month to have kinky sacks and like that’s the extent of it. I think that like there’s, there’s like some real beauty in being like, and also he’s special to me and also this connection is like meaningful and also I am enriched because of this person in my life. I can think of multiple people in my life who I’ve only ever had kinky sex with and also like they transformed me also just as much as long-term partners of mine have had of mine have. And so like I think that there’s like a real power and beauty and like naming all the different connections that we have as special and not being afraid of that. And so I think also if you’re someone who’s like on board with a nom monogamy, but maybe polyamory scares you, I think that like this book is not setting out to convince you to be polyamorous, but I think it will sort of like demystify what polyamory like could be for you.

(20m 53s):
And there’s also good section In this book about commitment and covenant And I think there’s like some real wisdom about whether you’re polyamorous or open or monogamous audiences. I think it’s important that you proactively choose that for yourself rather than just take it on as a default. And really you’ve got to like, in order, you have to be able to say no in order for consent to be present. Like we recognize that when it comes to sex, right? Like if you can’t say no, like you actually can’t consent to it. And so I think similarly, like if you can’t say no to monogamy, did you like really choose it? And so really earnestly putting all the options on the table and saying, this is what I want, this is like what works best for us in this moment is so much more powerful than just sort of being like, well, I have to be monogamous audiences.

(21m 41s):
I’ve always have been monogamous audiences. My partner’s just some monogamy, so I just have to accept it. And that is like also some wisdom that we can apply to our relationship with the divine and or with our spiritual communities that like it’s important that those commitments being just as intentionally chosen as well and have a whole section on making commitments with the divine and your spiritual communities in there as well. I’m, I’m curious, there might be some folks listening who are just like not sure about ethical non-monogamy or polyamory maybe, maybe from theological reasons, maybe from past relational reasons, maybe just ’cause like it feels scary, overwhelming, icky, like insert whatever here.

(22m 33s):
I know that this is not a book about how to, and it’s also not about a book about like why, why people should consider this, okay. Quote unquote. Okay. Yeah. But I’m curious like how would you answer that question? Would you answer that question if someone was like, is this a book for me? Yeah, I mean I actually address that in, I want to say like the intro or the first chapter that’s sort of like, as you read through the book, you will notice that I don’t like go through a chapter in verse defense of polyamory non monogamy.

(23m 14s):
And I don’t say, here are all of the arguments that are sort of against polyamory, non monogamy. And I’m gonna sort of like give them a debate club rebuttal to them because I think doing so cheapens this sort of like beautiful love and commitment and connection that we have and also like it’s an a historical position like most animal species are not monogamous audiences. Like non-monogamy is present in basically like every human culture in many human cultures, non-monogamy was like the norm and or celebrated. So like actually monogamy is sort of like the unnatural way of being, which I don’t mean that, I don’t mean unnatural in sort of like a bad way, but like you have to choose to be monogamous audiences and most people continue to experience sexual attraction to people who are not their partners.

(24m 5s):
And then they, they like choose to not act on that. And if those are your, there’s a way that you can sort of like make that hot and sexy, right? Like, but like if, if you choose to, like, that’s great, but it’s like not actually quote unquote like natural. And so like if anything like the monogamous audiences, you be the ones defending themselves. So I think like that’s my cheeky answer to it. But what I say in, in that section of the intro or the first chapter is that like, I think that through all of the examples of myself, my friends, my clients research from polyamory, nom monogamy and relationship wellbeing combined with sort of like the stories and the ways in which we like ways integrate and see ourselves in scripture and in our faith traditions. I think that sort of like the goodness of non-monogamy and polyamory will become like evident to you by the end of the book.

(24m 54s):
And so in that sense, like the book is just like such a celebration of all different ways of connecting beyond monogamy that I think if you’re sort of on the fence about like whether it’s like quote unquote, okay, as long as you’re willing to sort of like go in it with eyes open and heart open, I think that, I think you will walk away convinced maybe not that it’s right for you, but you could be able to see the beauty in it for other people. I know that you’ve got a couple of pre-order bonuses for folks that pre-order the book, and so if folks are interested in grabbing one of those, where is the best place for them to do that?

(25m 34s):
Yep. You go to my website, which is, this is bgm.com/book. I’m also, this is bgm on all the social medias. It’s one, one phrase for everywhere. This is bgm.com/book. We’ll have links to all of like the major online places to buy the book from, as well as a few of my favorite local spots to order from. You can get it from literally anywhere books are sold. That page will also have a link to submit and claim the bonuses. I’m gonna send out some stickers that are designed by some queer artists and you also get some like digital resources around both relationships and spirituality. And if you’re interested in some more personal and more sexy slash scandalous reflections, I’d be happy to add you to my close friends on Instagram as well.

(26m 17s):
So all that is that, this is bgm.com/book And as a reminder, this book comes out on September 18th. I, it’s such a needed and exciting book. I’m so, so thrilled. I have pre-ordered my copy. I’m very excited to get my hands on it and, and dive into it. I also know that you’ve got a couple of launch events for folks that are on, on the east coast at this precise moment that is where the launch events are happening. So where, can you share a little bit more about those events? Yeah, if you are in or near or able to get to New York City, I would love to have you at the sort of like official release party.

(26m 60s):
It’s Friday, September 19th at Judson Memorial in New York City. That’s in the evening, I believe doors will open at six 30. We’re still at the time of this recording nailing down the logistics all. I’ll also like, make sure that this is bgm.com/book has a link to RCP for that. It’s free all, they’re welcome. Bring your friends and your partners and your metamours and your parents, whoever you wanna come with can come, I’m working on an event in DC at some point TBD and I’m also working on an event in Los Angeles, also TBD potentially in early October. So if you are are in one of those places, add join the mailing list.

(27m 42s):
Or on that page I’ll put a little, like, bring me to your city and I’ll start collecting locations and email addresses with folks in other cities. And then like relatedly, if you’re at a church or a synagogue or a school or a bookstore and you would like me to come do a book event in your city, if you and your folks can get me there, I will. I’ll come for for free. So just reach out. Yeah, so once again, Love Beyond Monogamy by Brian G Murphy comes out on September 18th. Pre-order your copy, get it, get one for your friends, get one for everyone in your life. It’s gonna be a beautiful book and you’re gonna wanna get it as soon as it comes out.

(28m 22s):
Ryan, thank you for this conversation and we’ll see you all next week. Thanks much. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

The post Love Beyond Monogamy appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• The lectionary provides a framework for exploring faith and community.
• Hospitality is a divine encounter that can change lives.
• Solidarity with the incarcerated requires deep empathy and understanding.
• Trust and vulnerability are essential in building relationships.
• Engaging with marginalized communities can be uncomfortable but necessary.
• Solidarity is not just about charity; it’s about deep relationships.
• Practicing love means showing up for others in tangible ways.
• The messiness of life is part of the journey of faith.
• We must be willing to step outside our comfort zones.
• Engagement with others can lead to transformative experiences.

Chapters

(02:43) Radical Hospitality and the Divine in Strangers

(05:29) Solidarity with the Incarcerated: A Call to Action

(08:04) Practicing Vulnerability and Trust in Community

(10:47) The Cost of Solidarity: Embracing Messiness

(13:48) Transformative Relationships: Beyond Charity

(16:42) Engaging with the Uncomfortable: A Journey of Faith

Resources:

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. Today is Sunday, August 30th, and the reason why that date matters is because we are kicking it old school style here in the podcast, and we’re gonna get back to our roots and queer, one of the passage, us from this week’s lectionary. If you have been a listener for only the past few years, you might not know that for the first like eight or so years, we went through the Christian Lectionary every week for those eight, eight years.

(56s):
So it’s a three year cycle. So we went through it almost entirely three times. Obviously we had a lot aqua to do, so we’ve been doing topics and deeper dives into whole books and interviews and things like that for the past few years. But we just really love the Bible. And there’s something about pulling up the week and seeing what speaks to us. This is also practice that Jews do through the weekly Torah portion. They, they, we go through the first five books of the Bible, the, the Torah, the first five books, ofm, Moses, Genesis, EXUS, Leviticus, numbers, and Deuteronomy on a yearly cycle. And so there’s something about like, it’s, it’s kinda like akin to pulling tarot cards where you just sort of, you pull the card and you see what comes up for you in that moment. And so this week we’re looking at Hebrews 13, one through eight, 15 through 16.

(1m 41s):
We’ll be reading from the common English Bible as is our practice. Keep loving each other like family. Don’t neglect to open up your homes to guests because by doing this, some have been hosts to angels without knowing it. Remember prisoners as if you were in prison with them and people who are mistreated as if you were in their place. Marriage must be honored in every respect with no cheating on the relationship because God will judge the sexually immoral person and the person who commits adultery your way of life should be free from the love of money, and you should be content with what you have. After all, he has said, I will never leave you or abandon you. This is why we can confidently say the Lord is my helper And I won’t be afraid. What can people do to me? Remember your leaders who spoke God’s word to you, imitate their faith as you consider the way their lives turned out.

(2m 26s):
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So let’s continually offer up a sacrifice of praise through him, which is the fruit from our lips that confess his name. Don’t forget to do good and to share what you have because God is pleased with these kinds of sacrifices. Oh man, this is so, so, so rich. I was like giggling because we, I, I have a book coming out in at this point, oh my God, like 18 days, 19 days. Ian Monogamy comes out on September 18th, and when we were looking, we were like, let’s just, it’s been a minute. Let’s look at the LEC to see if we might wanna do something of that.

(3m 6s):
And I, I don’t talk about this passage specifically in my book, but I do have a series of graphics for Instagram planned to promote the book that are a little bit spicy. So if you’re interested in some spicy Bible takes, follow me over at this is BGM on Instagram. And, and this is one of the passage us that I grabbed as around hospitality of Strangers. And in particular, like what, what stuck out to me was this bit about that like, because if you would like neglect to open up your house, you, you might miss out on hosting angels without knowing it. And so there’s like this something about angels, guests being angels, guests being God, seeing God in this stranger that really, that really sort of captured my attention.

(3m 57s):
And I have lots of sex positive and non-monogamous and polyamorous perspectives on that, but that I can, that I can certainly dive into. But I, I know also Shay, when I said, oh, oh, this passage jumps out at me, you also said that you were curious about this passage. So what are some of the things that come up for you? Yeah, I mean I, I’ve been doing a lot of work in, in regards to folks who are incarcerated lately. And so this Hebrews 13, three remember prisoners as if you were in prison with them really jumped out at me. You know, I think that’s a, it’s a verse on a lot of folks use in their kind of quote unquote prison ministry.

(4m 37s):
But I think about how often or how, how rarely I hear more progressive folks talk about this verse and, and really hold to that. And, And I, I, I was, I was actually thinking the other day about how how distant the lives of folks who are incarcerated are for so many people, particularly in like white, mainline more progressive traditions. Obviously that is not the case across the board, but in the, in many of the churches that I’ve been in, that has been the case.

(5m 18s):
Or if it wasn’t the case, the people who did have loved ones who were incarcerated or friends who were incarcerated, like didn’t really talk about that because they didn’t feel like they could or they didn’t feel like anyone could understand. Or maybe there was shame around that. And so I I, I’m just really struck by this, this line and, and especially like what it would do if we actually took it seriously to remember prisoners as if you were in prison with them. I mean, that’s a really strong statement of Solidarity. And I was also struck by, you know, I, I know that, I know in my experience, not a lot of people read out of Hebrews or spend a lot of time with this book.

(6m 9s):
’cause I think it is a little bit of a quirky book, but I, I was just really struck by like how kind of radical this whole text is minus the like weird purity culture thing in the middle, but like, engage in radical hospitality, love each other, like family, remember prisoners and people who are mistreated, don’t love money. Be content with what you have. Like pay attention to the fruit of, of your leaders, not just like doing whatever they say, but like, consider the way that their lives turned out.

(6m 57s):
Don’t forget to do good, right? Like all of these, share what you have. Yeah. Share what you have. And like I, it just, I’ve been spending a lot of time around evangelicals and it just like boggles my mind that like they will pull out the sexual immorality verse and ignore everything else. And it’s like y’all, it says, it says these things, not so, Not so literalist now, are we? Yeah, it’s, it’s just, it’s just wild to me. But, but again, at the same, at the same token, like as I’m saying all of this, I’m also talking about how so many progressive folks like ignore the, remember those who are in prison.

(7m 37s):
And so I think Right, There is a sense of all of us pick and choose, but at least like, let’s be honest about what we’re picking and choosing and why we’re doing it. Because I think that like, that it’s that lack of honesty and transparency about how we’re engaging with the text, that is what makes it so dangerous to like pick and choose and, and, and enter into those kinds of conversations. Yeah, I I’m thinking about what you were saying about how for many people in white progressive churches that like people in prison feels like there’s at least one layer removed from that and it’s, I dunno, maybe it’s scary or it’s uncertainly dunno where to begin.

(8m 24s):
And I, I’m, I’m remembering our conversation a few weeks go about like rural God, city God. And one of the things that living in New York City has done for me is it like puts me in close proximity to lots of different types of people. And so there’s, I’m just sort of less immediately frightened by quote unquote the other, which is not to say that people in New York City like love prisoners and have good relationships with them, you could still have all sorts of shitty politics or theology around, around prison. And also I think that like, there’s something here about welcome and, and prisoners and even like these and sharing and these good fruits that there, that I think that we like really need to start practicing A getting comfortable being uncomfortable, and b, not being afraid of people who are different than us and people then are other than us.

(9m 25s):
And so, like in my book, Laiya Monogamy, I talked a little bit about like some ways that you might start do that. And I, And I, like, I don’t think that you have to have sex with Strangers to, to, to practice. But I, but what I will say is that like there is like an incredible amount of trust that anyone having a one night stand puts in the other person, but like in particular, right? Like queer men, we’re making lots of generalizations here, but like, there’s a culture of queer men having one night stands. We use Grindr, we use other apps to, to, to find hookups and then to just sort of like, I don’t, I don’t, sometimes I don’t even know your name and I’m inviting you over into my house. I’m gonna get totally naked with you. That’s incredibly vulnerable. And like if I can practice being trusting and vulnerable enough to have a one night stand, like certainly I can be, I can also practice tru being trusting and vulnerable enough to have a conversation with a person asking for money or to have a conversation or like become a pen pal with a prisoner or to get involved in like a local food kitchen that like these things take work and they’re gonna be outside of our comfort zone.

(10m 33s):
And also, like, one of the things that I recommend in my book is like if you can find one area where you’ve already practiced being a little bit uncomfortable or trusting in someone else a little bit more like that, they then you realize that that is a muscle that you can develop. And so then like where might you then also point yourself and try to develop or where you aren’t as comfortable or where you, your, your focus might need a little bit more attention. And I think, you know, all of us naturally have things that we’re more interested in, things that come easier to us. And I think that that, you know, we can’t, we can’t be doing all things all the time. We would be like, there’s just not enough time or energy in the day.

(11m 15s):
So we do, there is some amount of narrowing your focus that you have to do in order to like really do good work. And, and one of the things that I talk about in my book is to like make sure that that is like an intentional choice rather than I fall into the things that come easiest to me. I fall into the things that benefit me the most. I fall into the things that support people who look like me. I, I focus on the things that my, are important to my parents or that are important to, you know, the, the church that I’ve always gone gone to. And it, it might behoove us all to sort of look to see like, well, where are the spots that we’re not paying as much attention? And not that we didn’t have to become like full-time activists for those causes, but is there some learning that we could do around that?

(11m 58s):
Is there some sigma boosting that we could do around that? Is there some support we could offer in some way? Like might we pay like just a little bit more attention to some of those areas so that we can really, because I think like all parts of this passage from hospitality to being consolidated with prisoners to, I think also like even this like marish thing, like I think there is something that we could reclaim there that like they’re all sort of important ideals and like, I don’t want us to be single issue people of faith. And this can be like Audrey Lorde talks about that you can’t be single issue voters because we don’t live single issue lives And I don’t, I don’t want to fall into being a single issue person of faith.

(12m 39s):
Yeah. I I think the other thing that stuck out to me along with everything that you were saying is also like having a better understanding and practice of what Solidarity actually means and looks like. Because I, I think that along with getting uncomfortable, like Solidarity is also uncomfortable, right? Yeah. And so many of us, I I think again, speaking in general, gen generalities, gen generalities, there We go. Generalities. So many of us speaking in generalities, you know, have been taught about charity, right? Like donate, we give money, we volunteer somewhere, we quote unquote give back or whatever.

(13m 29s):
And, and again, that like keeps us at a remove. And, And I think that what this passage is calling us to is actually like not being at a remove, right? Welcoming the stranger into your home, remembering those in prison as if you also were in prison. And like, if we actually took that seriously. I, I think that changes our posture and it’s not just about, oh, I give money when I can. Yeah. Or I volunteer once a week. It’s like, no, I actually reorient my life so that I’m in deep relationship with people relationship and that then changes how I show up in the world.

(14m 12s):
And that is deeply uncomfortable, right? Because I think it’s really, it’s easier to think about like, how might I give to the less fortunate while also just then going back to my house. It’s a, it’s a lot different to think about like, oh, what does it mean to actually like be friends or family with someone who’s in prison? What does it mean to actually invite someone over to my house that I don’t know that well or that is really different than me? Like, what does it mean to share meals with people not from, you know, a soup kitchen counter where I’m on one side serving and they’re on the other side eating.

(14m 56s):
Like, what does it mean to actually break bread together? I think that those are the things that are, that we need to be practicing and that if we start to practice that, that like, that will radically change our lives. And that is very, very scary, I think. And also I think it’s going to be the thing that is gonna be necessary in the coming moments. Yes. Yes. And, And I like, that’s also like practicable. And so like, I think I sometimes take for granted that I, in my early twenties got like really intense civil disobedience, non-violence means training through from civil rights leaders. And that that really shaped me and that, that I was then thrown into activism in, in New York City.

(15m 36s):
And so like, this is like not work that you, one, I think the key Takeaways from that time of my life was like, this is like not work that you do on your own. And so there are already, wherever you live, there are people maybe not depending if you, if you live in a small town, like maybe not a five minute drive away, but like somewhat accessible to you, I’m sure that there are people that are organizing in some way. And so like if you need to get plugged into other folks to learn from them, like how do I like resist the police document, the police, like what are some places that I like might intermix my life with people who are different than me? Because like to your point earlier, it’s not about just like, oh, I give money or I volunteer and like, that’s enough.

(16m 19s):
But like, when I’m thinking about Solidarity, it’s like how do I use my body? Who am I friends with? Like where do I move to or do I not move to like if I have kids, like where do I send my, like kids to school, how do I like spend my money? Not just like, do I do, I give away a little bit when it feels convenient, but like, like a friend needs a new car, so I’m gonna, and I’ve got some extra cash, so I’m gonna like, I’m gonna shell it a thousand dollars and other friend’s gonna show out a thousand dollars somebody, I’m gonna show it a thousand dollars. And I’m like, buy this person a new car, or I’m gonna open up the doors to my house and house someone. Like sometimes Solidarity is uncomfortable and sometimes Solidarity costs something.

(17m 8s):
And like, and also it’s the right thing to do. And also like, you meet, you meet God there, you know? And, And I think too that there’s something about like, it’s often messy, right? Like you, there’s no guarantees that the person you’re supporting that just got out of prison like is gonna not go back. Right. And there’s, there’s no chance that there, there’s no like guarantees that the person you open up your house to like, might not steal something from you. Right. They might not, but like that could happen. And so, And I, I think that there is a a also a, a cost to weighing of like, it, this isn’t about perfection and it’s not about it.

(17m 58s):
It’s not about the shiny like, I don’t know, pamphlet picture that you get to post on your social media or your nonprofits website. Like sometimes relationships are messy and sometimes like you are gonna be the one that fails and lets someone down and does something that’s hurtful or harmful and like, that’s all part of it. Right. And I, And I think that, I don’t know, I, I think too often we, I get caught up in this idea of it has to be perfect before I can engage or like, if there’s a chance that it’s not gonna be perfect, I don’t wanna do it. And, and like we just don’t have time to be waiting for the perfect anymore.

(18m 42s):
Like I think we have to, we have to engage in, in whatever ways we can. And like you said, like not alone, like we do this in community and we do this, we do this as a practice and you don’t have to open your doors to a complete stranger tonight. Right. Like, that’s probably not the best thing for you to do. Yeah. But like, what are the ways that you can start on that journey of, of being in Solidarity in new ways? Like what is, what is the thing that you could do today to start opening you up to that journey of learning? Yeah. And also like, it might be that you open up your doors to a complete stranger tonight. You know, I’m, I’m thinking like, when I was in, in my twenties, my, like two of my good friends And I like, through these set of circumstances, we ended up like at a cafe.

(19m 29s):
Like one of them was in a, in a group program. We were all at dinner afterwards with people from the group. And the person who ended up at our table, we were like all chatting and hanging out and like, it came up like he like was planning on sleeping on the subway that night because he didn’t have stable housing. And one of my friends was like, no, like, you’re coming. Like, I just met you an hour ago at the start of dinner and like, you’re gonna come sleep at my place Sunday if you, if you would like a place to stay. Like, I’m gonna open up our couch to you. And like he ends up doing that. And over the course of the next, like many years, like, lived there for a while, lived with me for a while. At some point I ended up moving into that, that same apartment. And he moved away and then he moved back and we were all roommates together and like we’ve all, we’ve all since left in New York City and also like, we all still keep in touch.

(20m 12s):
And he became like a lifelong friend that I haven’t seen in probably a decade, but that we like text somewhat regularly. And there was times there where like it was uncomfortable and like we were, I was annoyed at him. He was annoyed at me. Like he left the state, I left the state. We came back like, it was like not, you know, like an easy story necessarily. Like, and also like, he’s like, like a good friend now. And that experience changed me. And it was, it took my, my other friend being like, no, like, this changes tonight. Or I’m thinking about friends that I know that have like fallen into addiction. And then because of that lost jobs then because of that, like lost housing and like, how do you like continue to show up for them and take care of them and love them.

(20m 56s):
Like even in the midst of addiction recovery, like relapse, there aren’t any like easy, clear cut like answers. And also I try to start with like, if I put love at the center and not this sort of just sort of touchy feely emotion of love, but like embodied love at the center of this. Like what are some ways that I can continue to show up for the people who I’ve known for a long time? The people who are crossing my path today, the people who I’m, who I’m, who I might meet in the future, the people that I share a city with. And it’s like, it’s, there’s not always the right answer and it’s definitely not always easy, but like, can you do something?

(21m 40s):
And it just like, it keeps coming back to like, it takes practice. So start wherever you are, like start practicing there and then try to take like one small step outside of your comfort zone. You can start by giving up Harry Potter. Like if you, I just, I was like listening back to, to a podcast episode I was on, I was like, you won’t stop reading Harry Potter. You think you’re gonna resist fascism or like confront the police or hide the Jews or the immigrants or like, or get trans people their medication. Like no, you won’t, you won’t, you won’t put on a book. Yeah, you are, you are literally watching Voldemort take over and you can’t even watch the, you can’t even learn the lesson from the book that you refuse to stop reading.

(22m 21s):
Yeah. Jesus. The Queer Theology podcast Is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LBTQ, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

The post Strangers & Solidarity – Hebrews 13:1-8, 15-16 appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• Devotionals are often seen as a proxy for faith.
• Many youth devotionals lack depth and context.
• Understanding the Bible requires recognizing its complexity.
• Devotionals can reinforce harmful theology if not critically engaged.
• There are various ways to engage with spirituality beyond devotionals.
• Shannon’s book aims to provide tools for understanding scripture.
• The book encourages readers to ask questions and wrestle with faith.
• ‘Come and See’ is designed to be accessible for young people.
• The book includes journaling prompts for reflection and discussion.
• Engaging with the Bible can be a communal experience.

Chapters

(00:53) Devotionals: A Personal Journey

(10:36) Alternatives to Traditional Devotionals

(14:05) Introducing ‘Come and See’ Devotional

(17:41) Understanding the Bible: Context Matters

(21:09) Target Audience for ‘Come and See’

Resources:

• Pre-order “Come And See: An Invitation to a Radical Encounter With Jesus” by Fr. Shannon TL Kearns
• Check out books about faith and the Bible that we recommend 
• Rituals for Resistance and Resilience
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello and welcome back today. I’m so excited because we are talking about Shannon’s new book and See An Invitation to a Radical Encounter With Jesus. This is a Devotional, specifically intended for youth and young adults. And along the way, I think we’re gonna talk about some of our own experiences with Devotionals, maybe some of the highlights and some of the horror stories in our growing up era and how we approach Devotional and other sort of contemplative practices around scripture and faith.

(1m 4s):
So that’s, that’s where we are today. Shannon, like Devotionals, gimme your sort of history with Devotionals and, and youth, youth Devotionals in particular, I suppose. Oh man. I feel like Devotionals were such a popular thing when I was in elementary and high school. Yeah. And I feel like, especially in high school, right? I feel like we came of age, and I’m a little bit older than you, but I, so I really came of age in the moment when contemporary Christian pop culture was really, really, really hitting its sth, right? Like yeah, there were, you know, the stadium tours and the merch and the branded everythings, and, and, and like, there were huge Christian bookstores like all around, even in the kind of small town that I grew up in.

(1m 57s):
Like we had this giant Christian bookstore. And so I spent a lot of time kinda in those spaces and, and there was also a real heavy emphasis on your daily quiet time, right? Preferably first thing in the morning, whether or not you were a morning person, right? You’re supposed to get into the word and pray and et cetera. And so like Devotionals kind of became an easy way to, to do those quiet times, right? Because you didn’t have to think, you just like did the thing. And I remember in particular, I wish I had it with me, but like Rebecca St.

(2m 37s):
James had her own Devotional And I like still have my copy. And I remember going through that And I, you know, she was really focused on purity. And, and, And I, I mean, I appreciated the way that sometimes these Devotionals helped me to like ask questions or to think about my faith, but I also really had this sense of like, you were diving into scripture in just really small out of context snippets. You’re sometimes only reading a Bible verse or two.

(3m 20s):
There was never any like, here’s what was happening in this story or here’s what was happening in history. It was just like this out of context versus that then applied to, I don’t know, American culture today. And yeah, like that was supposed to be how you were supposed to engage. And so like, it didn’t actually teach me how to read the Bible, it didn’t teach me how to understand these texts. It was just like, I don’t know, Christian pop culture written over the Bible is, is kind of how I remember experiencing it. Yeah, I mean that it’s, it’s funny because the purpose of it is the stated purpose is to like spend time in God’s word and to really put the focus on the word and you know, this same focus, I think that we’re promoting these Devotional, but what also say things like the whole bible, the bible, the whole bible, nothing but the Bible, right?

(4m 17s):
Right. And, and Sola script Torah and, and all of those buzzwords. But to your point, it was like one, maybe four sentences of the Bible and then like a page or two of some random person’s thoughts on the Bible. And so you’re really, it’s all being like run through this rubric and then presented as well, this is just like what it plainly says, but when you’re only looking at for one to four verses, like you can make that say whatever you want. Yeah, yeah. And, and they sure do, right? I mean that’s kind of the, the problem. Yeah. I, I had a similar experience as you with Devotionals.

(4m 58s):
I remember my junior high, my junior high leader gave at some point gave me probably a men’s Devotional, like a young man’s Devotional. And later on po I think a young life leader probably gave me one. And, and my, my fifth grade Sunday school teacher, my sixth grade Sunday school teacher, I think it was like he, we didn’t go through a specific Devotional book together, but he kind of did like a DIY Devotional where each week we would have like a class memory verse and he would teach us just around these, like, it was, it was always like, like you were saying, snippet based. It was like a few passage us here, a few passage us I mean a few sentences here, a few sentences, a few sentences, a few sentences there, which doesn’t really give you, certainly doesn’t give you any context about like what was going on at that moment in scripture, but it doesn’t even really give you any context around what was going on before, after it in, in the chapter.

(5m 49s):
And when you’re talking about quiet times earlier, that also really stuck out to me because I remember feeling like quiet times became this sort of like proxy for how devout you were, especially like for young people, right? It was like, well, are you doing your quiet times? And they would never say, right, well, if you don’t read your Bible, God doesn’t love you, your salvation doesn’t count, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because it’s all predicated on, all you have to do is say this prayer. And also there was sort of like a, well, if you were a real believer, like real for real believers, this is really important. And so then, then Devotionals became, like you were saying sort of an a to help you do that easier.

(6m 35s):
And so it was very much sort of like wrapped up in this sort of like, it’s ostensibly about connecting the, with the divine yourself, but it was also sort of one of the like rubber stamped, community approved ways of like showing that your, like a real Christian have a true faith. And so I, I wonder like how, when, like, ’cause I know we get a lot of requests for Devotionals. I wonder like how much of the emphasis when, when people want a Devotional, how much of it is like, what are you looking for outta that? I always ask folks, are you wanting to learn about the Bible?

(7m 15s):
Are you wanting to read more of the Bible, have an easy way into the Bible? Or like, I think for some people it is sort of like, I want to feel connected to God generally. And this is sort of like the way that I’ve been told one does that, Yeah. And it also me that like almost all of the Devotionals, especially the ones that I was reading growing up, but I think even quite a few of them now all have this kind of underlying, i, I wanna say assumption, but I, I, I don’t think, I think it’s an assumption on the audience, right? That it’s like they’re all just teaching the Bible, right?

(7m 55s):
They’re, there’s, there’s never any clarity about what, where does this come from? Because that’s the thing with like popular evangelical culture is that, well, it’s just Christian, and it’s like, no, actually you’re interpreting scripture through a very, very specific lens, except that like, nowhere are you saying what that lens is or how you’re, how you’re interpreting. And so I think it’s can be really harmful, especially for young people who don’t, who maybe don’t have the, the savvy to be able to know, oh, I can’t just like go into Barnes and Noble and pick up any Devotional.

(8m 39s):
And I think that a lot of people are getting some really harmful theology Yeah. Under the guise of, well, it’s just a Devotional, right? It’s just about the Bible. It can’t be, there’s no agenda here, but like as we know that there is definitely agenda, There’s always an agenda. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I’m also struck, I was, I was doing some research, like I was trying to see like what else was out there. I’m also really, really struck by how many Devotionals a are like super gendered, like you were mentioning earlier that that you’re youth leader probably gave you a men’s Devotional. And there, especially in the young, the young people Devotionals, it’s, they’re still very heavily like every young man’s battle and every young woman’s battle, right?

(9m 24s):
The those that brand of Devotionals are really popular. So like super gender and also a lot about like, purity, especially for high school students. And it just becomes this, I, for me, it’s like yet another tool of, of shame and control on young people to like make sure that they’re fitting into these really narrow little boxes, which is again, I not not healthy. Yeah. When you were talking about, you know, every Devotional has a context which you know, is in the same vein of all theology has a context. It’s like setting aside like progressive versus conservative LGBT affirming versus anti LGBT, even if you only looked at conservative aff affirming Devotionals of sort of like really super strict Lutheran perspective is going to be like wildly different than a Baptist perspective is going to be different than a Roman Catholic perspective, like in general on the same passage us on what passage us get selected.

(10m 30s):
And so yeah, like there’s, everyone is always like running it through a lens. And so to your point, I think paying attention to that lens is so important. So obviously, like we’re a big fans of Devotionals, we wrote one together, queer’s the Word, you have this new one coming out. Well, And I wanna get to your Devotional in, in a moment, but for folks that are maybe listening and are sort of like Devotional skeptic, I think we can get to maybe like the, the prose of a Devotional leader, but like, what are some alternatives to Devotionals? Like how might you engage with the Bible and or with Faith if you’re like, a Devotional is like too triggering for me because while we think I, well, I think your Devotional is really great, you know, I know that’s just that the, the, the, the genre in general is not gonna be for everyone.

(11m 13s):
And so what are some other ways that people who aren’t interested at all or used to be interested about Ben Burn can sort of still engage with their spirituality? Yeah, I mean, I think that your question earlier is really helpful is like, what are you hoping to, to get out of whatever practice it is that you’re interested in engaging in? And I think that like for a lot of folks, the, the reason that they might pick up a Devotional is because it, it’s an easy access point, right? Like it’s, it’s all packaged for you and you don’t have to like weighed in on your own, like without floaties. It, it gives you some floaties, right? For, for whatever your spiritual practice is. But I do think that like if you, and that’s, That’s not inherently a bad thing, right? Right. Correct. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(11m 55s):
But I think that like, and ’cause I think that, you know, for some folks, especially if you either have a negative relationship with scripture or you’ve never engaged with scripture at all, like figuring out where to start if engaging with scripture is part of what you are feeling like you want your practice to be like, that can be really overwhelming. And so I think, you know, one of the things that we talk a lot about is like, you don’t have to just dive into the Bible. It can often be helpful to read a book about the Bible. You know, we, I always recommend Rob Bells, what is the Bible? If you wanna like, dive deeper into, for instance, something like the Christmas stories, John, Dominic Hassan and Marcus Borgs, the first Christmas is really great, right?

(12m 40s):
Like these books dive into scripture while also providing context for how to read and understand it. And I think that that can be really helpful Really quickly, we have a bunch of book suggestions over at Queer Theology dot com slash book. So if you wanna grab either of those that Shay just mentioned, or find some other ones, that’s a great place to go check out. Yeah. And then I think, you know, if you’re looking for something else, like something that’s not just scripture or study-based, right? Like really experimenting with what are, where are the places that you feel connected to the divine? For some people that might be getting out in nature and, and doing a, a prayer walk outside. For me, I usually feel crabby in nature.

(13m 23s):
So, you know, for me it’s like, I would like to find a, a really pretty and quiet church to, to spend time in or to walk a labyrinth, right? To just try out some different practices and find out what works and, and give it a chance to work on you and in you. And it doesn’t have to look like a quiet time in the morning, right? It could look like reading a book. It could look like really in depth study. It could look like a meditation walk or going to a meditation class or sitting in silence in a Quaker meeting, right? There are lots of different ways that practices can look, and it’s about kind of finding what feeds your spirit and, and then also being open to trying new things and to, to going maybe out of your comfort zone to experience something different.

(14m 14s):
We have some resources for putting together spiritual practices and rituals that fit for you. Inside of our spiritual study hall, it’s called Rituals for Resistance and Resilience, as well as a place to sort of talk with other people about what’s working for them, discuss these books that we’re reading, discuss the Bible in the Sanctuary Collective Community. You can learn more about both of those and get access at Queer Theology dot com slash community. And so now let’s turn our attention to you’re this Devotional. Like why did you write, Come and See? Yeah, I mean, part of it is because we’ve gotten so many requests over the Years For Devotionals that we could recommend for young people. And honestly, I couldn’t in good conscience recommend any of them.

(14m 57s):
And you know, I also, I, you know, I did youth work for Man like 20 years and found often that even the most progressive, most progressive kind of resources either were written a little bit too young for their intended audience. Like even the things that were aimed at, like high schoolers was like, this is really for a, a middle schooler, or it didn’t really take justice seriously. And again, I, like I mentioned earlier, it did, it also didn’t really give folks tools to understand these texts, right?

(15m 38s):
We’re still, it’s like taking things out of context. And so I wanted to create a Devotional that was accessible, that was aimed for young people, but that was also smart and grounded in like the best of scholarship. And that gave young folks some tools to understand like, this is how the Bible is put together, this is how we can understand it, to give them permission to grapple and wrestle with texts, to ask questions. And then I also wanted to, to, like we did with the queers, the word Devotional, to both give places for people to reflect, reflect back their own experiences of reading these texts, but then also to put their faith into practice.

(16m 25s):
Because I think that, you know, for, for all of us, I, I think we need that cycle of we learn about something, we reflect on it, and we reflect it as how it interrupts and interacts with our own lives. And then we also have to like, go and practice something and like put what we’re learning actually into action out in the world. And so, as I said in the, in the beginning of the journal, like, or the Devotional, I really think of this as like an iterative process and an iterative journal, like it’s 40 days, but there’s also so much to come back to as you’ve tried an experiment and then you come back and you’re like, oh, that actually makes me see this passage in a whole different way.

(17m 8s):
And now I understand it in new ways because like, I’ve done this thing and now I’m gonna reflect and, and journal in different ways. And so wanted again to just be something that was really accessible, but also really focused on justice and inclusion and, and grounded in, in the best scholarship that, that I’ve encountered. All right, thanks for that. And I, it’s my understanding that you’re gonna share this little sneak peek from the Devotional. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. So Before we get into that, just a reminder to everyone listening, you can get to Come and See an invitational to radical encounter with Jesus everywhere books are sold, it’s available for pre-order right now, it comes out in just a few weeks on September 2nd.

(17m 49s):
Pre-orders are super important, especially for small queer trans authors like us. They help let the publishers and the bookstores know that this is a book worth buying and selling and stocking on their shelves and for people to talk about. So we really encourage you if you are planning on buying it, to go ahead and do that. Now. You can again get it, any books are sold. If you go to Queer Theology dot com slash books, you can find links to all of the big places that you might wanna get it from. And so, Shannon, what now let’s, let’s dive into your Devotional. So I’m actually gonna read a little piece from the very beginning, which is it’s about helping readers to understand the Bible. So before we’re even diving into the Devotional and providing some context for how to understand the Bible.

(18m 30s):
And so this is from that section before we jump into our Devotional. It’s helpful if we have a working understanding of the Bible. It’s easy to think of the Bible as a book after all. We call it a book. It’s bound like a book. We can buy it in stores as a single volume. It’s better, however, to understand the Bible as a library of books. It’s a collection of a variety of different types of texts, histories, stories, letters, poetry, the list goes on. We can think of the Bible as a record of people who are trying to make sense of some really big questions. Who are we? Why are we here? What are we here to do? How did things get the way they are? Why do bad things happen? What is our relationship supposed to be with ourselves, with other people, and with God slash the divine?

(19m 14s):
Each one of these books is written by a particular person or sometimes groups of people in a particular time in a particular place. These particularities impact the way they tell the stories, as do the outside forces like politics, other religious practices from people around them and historical events they’re responding to. All of that together shapes the point they’re trying to make. And often how the original receivers would’ve understood it. Many of the books of the Bible started as an oral tradition, spoken stories and histories that were passed down through generations before finally being written down. And when they were originally written down, there were no Chapters and verse numbers. Those were added later to make it easier to read. But that’s why it’s so important that we don’t just memorize verses or read things outside of their whole context because these stories weren’t meant to be read that way.

(20m 0s):
They were meant to tell a whole story. While some verses might be comforting, taking them out of their surroundings might make it mean something. It wasn’t meant to. Why does all of this matter? Because this complicated library of books has been used for both really amazing things and really damaging things. It’s been misunderstood and misused. It’s been used as a weapon, but also as a comfort. It’s been called Holy and Profane. It’s been said to be both the most important book of all and completely outdated. So as we enter into this Devotional, we want to read the Bible as it is in all its complexity. We want to understand what type of book we’re reading, and a bit about why it was written and who it was written to, and how they would’ve understood it.

(20m 40s):
We want to bring all of our intelligence with us as we engage with stories that can encourage, challenge and deepen our faith. We don’t have to be afraid to ask questions, to wrestle, to use all of our wisdom in trying to understand this library. In fact, grappling with the Bible is one of the most faithful things we can do. Hmm. Amen. And amen. I love that. So earlier on in this episode, we mentioned that this is a Devotional intended for youth and young adults. And so can you share a little bit about like, who the intended audience is? And I imagine that most of the listeners of our podcast are going to be on the older side of that range. And so like, is this a good fit for them anyways, or should they think about getting it as a gift for someone and who, like who in their lives might they be a good fit for?

(21m 27s):
Yeah, I mean, I specifically wrote it for, for younger folks, and so you’ll see, you know, the language is geared towards young people as it goes on. There are definitely references to things like school and some of the, the adventures are, you know, you have to take a parent or a trusted adult along. And so obviously, you know, if you are an older person reading it, you do not have to take your parent along. You can, you can do these adventures just on your own. And so I, I was really thinking about like youth groups and confirmation students and, you know, young people who are interested in the Bible and faith and who also care about justice, but who and who maybe don’t have access to an affirming community or, or maybe this is a book that they can read in community.

(22m 15s):
I also intended it the tool for parents to be able to give to the young people in their lives. And so there are, there are journaling prompts, but those journaling prompts could also be family discussion questions or something that is discussed around the dinner table or in the car on the way to and from something. And so I, I want it to be something that young folks could engage with on their own, and also a tool that people could engage with in groups if, if they had access to that. I do think that for some not young folks, that this actually could be really useful as long as you can kind of do that translating work on your own and are not put off by, you know, references to school or asking you to take in a tru trusted adult.

(23m 9s):
But again, like I’ve, I’ve tried to bring the best of what I have learned about how to read the Bible to this text. And, and so like, I just think about, it was pretty late into my Christian journey that I understood that the Bible was a library, right? Like yeah, network was telling me that I was allowed to argue with the text when I was a young person. And so, like, if you were also someone who maybe has grown up in a tradition that was more conservative and, and kind of antidote to might accessible first step, as long as you understand that it was, that it might be a little young, that some of the language might be a little young.

(23m 54s):
Yeah. I’m also thinking that if you haven’t read the Bible in a really long time or you’re not certain, if you want to, if you care about the Bible or want to care about the Bible, like this might be sort of like a low stakes, low lift sort of way to ease back into it before jumping into like a super studious like rigorous, dense read about the Bible or even devotion about the Bible. And Yeah. And so there’s, So just as a bit of, there’s 40, 40 entries. They’re, they go in kind of chronological order as to how the Bible is published and put together. We could, we could argue about whether that is actual chronological, chronological order.

(24m 37s):
It’s not, but it’s based on how the Bible’s put together. And then before, like each type new type of literature, there is a, a bit of a, a section of like how to understand that type of literature. And can you give us sort of like, what are those sections and a, a brief, obviously like read the book, but like a brief sort of like what are the different types of literature? Yeah, so like understanding, there’s like a quick start guide to like the Hebrew scriptures, one to the Christian scriptures. There’s some, some context around prophets, around poetry, around what the gospels are around the letters.

(25m 18s):
Some of that got compiled in because my editor thought that maybe not everyone was as much of a nerd as I was and would be willing to wade through all of those things. And so some of that is like folded into different sections. But I wanted to again, provide some tools for folks to, to help understand like how these different types of literature play out in, in the larger context of, of scripture. Very cool. And obviously like every person is different, every kid is different, every family is different, but like what is sort of like the low end of the range for who you think this might be appropriate for? I’m gonna guess probably like 11 or 12 again, depending on reading level.

(26m 0s):
And it, and it might be something that you could read with a younger kid. Awesome. Fantastic. Really more than anything though, you know, I really want this, this Devotional to be a gift to the church, to young people, to folks who are interested in grappling seriously with scripture, maybe don’t know how to get started. And but also folks who are really wanting to put their faith into practice in new ways and to try some different experiences, both of like justice work, but also new contemplative practices and new spiritual practices. And so I’m really excited for this book to get into the hands of people. I’m hoping that lots and lots of churches will buy it in bulk and give it out to their young people as gifts, but also that families will engage with it as well.

(26m 45s):
And so Come And See An Invitation to a Radical Encounter with Jesus comes out on September 2nd. There will be both a hardcover version and an ebook version and would love to, to get this out to as many people as possible. I Pre-ordered mine a few weeks ago And I’m so excited to get it And I hope that y’all listening will pre-order it, if not for yourself, for someone in your life, or just to donate to your church library or something like that. So Come and See and we’ll talk to you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com.

(27m 26s):
You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

The post Come & See: Radical Devotional appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• Reverend Mark Fowler emphasizes the importance of community in interfaith work.
• Interfaith work involves knowing one another as neighbors and supporting each other.
• Interspirituality transcends traditional interfaith concepts, focusing on shared humanity.
• Tannenbaum Center aims to combat religious prejudice and promote justice.
• Personal experiences with religion can shape one’s spiritual journey significantly.
• Wounds from past religious experiences can influence current spiritual exploration.
• Christian privilege can be an invisible barrier to understanding religious diversity.
• Engagement in interfaith work can lead to healing and community building.
• Joy can be found in spending time with family and friends.
• The importance of investigating the relationship between culture and religion.

Chapters

(04:23) Understanding Interfaith and Interspirituality

(09:13) Personal Journey and Spiritual Background

(18:21) The Role of Tannenbaum Center in Interfaith Work

(27:31) Navigating Privilege and Spiritual Identity

(33:12) Finding Joy and Community

Resources:

• Tanenbaum Center: https://tanenbaum.org/
• Mark E. Fowler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-fowler-9468b36 
• Follow Tanenbaum Center on IG: @tanenbaumcenter
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Exploring Interfaith with Reverend Mark E. Fowler appeared first on Queer Theology.

Resources:

• Listen to the full series on Mark
  • Week 2: What’s the Deal With the Pigs?
  • Week 3: Healing and Oppression
  • Week 4: When Empires Crumble
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

The post Throwback: The First Gospel – Mark  appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• We are living in two very different places.

• The spaces we inhabit shape our religious imagination.

• Cities are often seen as sites of wickedness compared to gardens.

• Urban areas provide more safety nets than rural communities.

• There is a sense of community in rural areas that can be lacking in cities.

• Religiosity can feel overt and uncomfortable in rural settings.

• Community hospitality is often stronger in smaller towns.

• Finding God requires training our attention to the divine in everyday life.

• Paying attention to the details can reveal the presence of God.

• Both urban and rural settings have unique challenges and opportunities for faith.

Chapters

(02:20) Exploring Urban vs. Rural Spirituality

(05:03) The Role of Community in Different Spaces

(11:32) Finding God in Everyday Life

(16:57) Attention and the Divine in Our Environments

Resources:. 

• Say Yes by Andrea Gibson

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Rural God, City God appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• Andrew has been a disability consultant for 14 years.
• They emphasize the importance of discussing sex and disability openly.
• Andrew’s book is a love letter to queer disabled people.
• They advocate for the inclusion of disabled sexuality in mainstream conversations.
• Andrew’s experiences with sex work have transformed their relationship with intimacy.
• They believe that disabled people deserve to explore their sexuality freely.
• Andrew’s journey includes creating a sex-positive community for disabled individuals.
• They highlight the need for more accessible spaces for disabled people to express their sexuality.
• Andrew’s work aims to challenge societal norms around disability and sexuality.
• They encourage others to see the beauty in their bodies and desires.

Chapters

(02:40) Talking About Sex and Disability

(05:37) The Journey to Disability Advocacy

(08:29) The Book: Notes from a Queer Cripple

(11:19) Sex Work and Intimacy

(14:09) The Importance of Connection

(17:01) Embracing Sexuality and Body Positivity

(19:50) The Power of Humor in Disability Advocacy

(22:52) The Influence of Queer Media

(25:10) Creating Inclusive Spaces for Disabled Queer People

(28:32) The Impact of the Deliciously Disabled Party

(31:07) Navigating Critiques and Misunderstandings

(34:35) The Complexity of Disability and Sexuality

(37:21) The Importance of Community and Support

(40:19) Final Thoughts on Sexuality and Disability

Resources:.

• Notes From a Queer Cripple by Andrew Gurza
• Learn more about Andrew Gurza https://www.andrewgurza.com/about
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post The Journey of a Queer Disabled Advocate with Andrew Gurza appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• The podcast has been running for 12 years, reflecting on faith and spirituality.
• Polypossibilities cohort explores the intersections of polyamory and spirituality.
• The power of sacred texts continues to resonate in new ways.
• Queer and trans Christian spaces are evolving, facing both progress and regression.
• Personal growth is deeply tied to spiritual practices and community engagement.
• Moral moments in society call for reflection and action.
• The relevance of their work highlights both positive and negative aspects of faith today.
• Surprises from the journey include a deeper engagement with traditional practices.
• The importance of community in exploring spirituality and identity.
• Looking ahead, the hosts are excited for future episodes and continued exploration.

Chapters

(01:21) Reflecting on 12 Years of Podcasting

(02:11) The Evolution of Faith and Spirituality

(04:55) The Power of Sacred Texts

(08:00) Navigating Queer and Trans Christian Spaces

(11:04) Personal Growth Through Spiritual Practices

(14:54) Moral Moments in Today’s Society

(18:11) Surprises from 600 Episodes

(23:25) Looking Ahead to Future Episodes

Resources:. 

• Register for Poly Possibilities at queertheology.com/poly-possibilities 
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post What We Learned From Reading The Bible Every Week for 600 Weeks appeared first on Queer Theology.

In this conversation, Troy shares his journey as a reality TV star on ‘Alphabet Soup,’ discussing the importance of vulnerability, navigating sexuality, and the role of faith in his life with Brian. He emphasizes self-love, authenticity, and the power of community, while also touching on his music career and aspirations for the future. Troy’s insights provide a powerful message of hope and resilience for the LGBTQ community and beyond.

Takeaways

• Troy emphasizes the importance of being vulnerable in reality TV.
• He discusses the challenges of navigating sexuality and relationships.
• Faith plays a significant role in Troy’s life and identity.
• Troy identifies as pansexual and shares his experiences in dating.
• He highlights the importance of self-love and authenticity.
• Troy’s music is a blend of R&B, neo-soul, and gospel.
• He aims to create a community for LGBTQ couples.
• Troy believes in the power of manifestation and positive thinking.
• He shares insights on overcoming personal challenges and societal pressures.
• Troy encourages others to embrace their true selves and pursue their passions.

Chapters

(02:57) Reality Show Dynamics and Vulnerability

(05:55) Navigating Sexuality and Relationships

(08:41) Faith and Spirituality in Troy’s Life

(11:42) Polyamory and LGBTQ+ Identity

(14:37) Reactions to the Show and Personal Life

(17:24) Troy’s Musical Journey and Live Experience

(19:46) The Art of Performance: Blending Music and Comedy

(21:03) Spirituality and Vulnerability in Art

(22:58) Building Community: Love and Support for LGBTQIA Couples

(25:02) Authenticity in Relationships and Reality TV

(26:01) Messages of Self-Love and Personal Growth

(29:09) Overcoming Challenges and Embracing Change

(33:37) Creating a Legacy: Music, Fragrance, and Future Projects

(35:58) Finding Joy in Living Authentically

Resources:. 

• Follow Troy on Instagram @troyweekesmusic 
• Learn more about Troy at https://www.mta.info/agency/arts-design/collection/troy-weekes-music 
• Watch “Alphabet Soup” on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/alphabet-soup/6837618235516302112 
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Finding God Outside the Walls of Church with Troy Weekes from Alphabet Soup appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re talking all about end times, the rapture, and other “scary” things from the Bible. We are certain that no matter the religion or faith you were brought up in, you’ve probably heard something or another about the end of the world and in this episode, Brian and Fr. Shay talk about what they were taught, whether they believe in the rapture, and a hilarious (twisted?) rapture-themed practical joke from Shay’s childhood.

Resources:. 

• Listen to all the Scary Things episodes: https://www.queertheology.com/podcast/424/ 
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Throwback: Scary Things appeared first on Queer Theology.

“Find Your Light with Adam MacLean”, where he navigates difficult conversations around shame, leadership, and self-acceptance. In these discussions, Adam integrates his expertise in holding space for others, helping listeners work through challenges related to the body, mind, and spirit—particularly within the realms of sacred intimacy.

In this conversation, Brian and Adam delve into the complexities of shame, particularly within the LGBTQ community. They explore the concept of post-shame, the impact of the internet on personal narratives, and the distinction between guilt and shame. Adam shares his personal journey, including his experiences with spirituality and 12-step programs, and how these intersect with his queerness. The discussion also touches on the significance of rituals in creating meaning and community, culminating in reflections on marriage and personal transformations. In this conversation, Adam and Brian explore the complexities of shame, relationships, and the impact of online culture on personal identity. They discuss the PostShame process, which helps individuals confront their pasts and navigate the challenges of public scrutiny. The dialogue delves into the nuances of sexuality, consent, and the importance of context in conversations about intimacy. They also touch on the experiences of men in today’s society, the distinction between erotic and pornographic expressions, and the significance of gender affirmation in personal journeys.

Takeaways

• Dissolving shame is essential for self-acceptance.
• The internet amplifies the experience of shame.
• Guilt is about actions, while shame is about self.
• Community plays a crucial role in healing from shame.
• Rituals can help create meaning in our lives.
• Personal narratives can be transformed through sharing.
• Spirituality can be redefined outside traditional structures.
• Queerness and theology can coexist harmoniously.
• Self-expression is a radical act of love.
• Marriage can mark a significant shift in relationships. We can only make commitments in our relationships.
• Online shaming is not evenly distributed.
• The PostShame process helps individuals reclaim their narratives.
• Navigating shame involves understanding context and consent.
• Sexuality and shame are often intertwined in complex ways.
• The distinction between erotic and pornographic is crucial.
• Healing can involve somatic practices and intimacy.
• Men often struggle with loneliness and connection.
• Trans experiences challenge traditional notions of gender.
• Dissolving shame is a shared mission for many.

Chapters

03:05 – The Birth of Post-Shame and Personal Journey

07:11 – Understanding Guilt vs. Shame

10:09 – The Role of the Internet in Shaming

11:45 – Revisiting 12-Step Programs and Spirituality

14:55 – The Intersection of Queerness and Theology

19:19 – Rituals and Their Significance in Community

21:57 – Personal Reflections on Marriage and Rituals

31:46 – Interrogating Language and Relationships

33:14 – Moving Beyond Shame

34:28 – The PostShame Process

36:46 – The Impact of Online Shaming

38:07 – Navigating Sexuality and Shame

39:40 – Context and Consent in Conversations

42:46 – The Distinction Between Erotic and Pornographic

47:34 – Sacred Intimacy and Healing

50:27 – Male Loneliness and Connection

56:12 – Trans Experiences and Gender Affirmation

Resources:.

• Learn more about Adam at https://www.postshame.org/adammaclean
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Post Shame & Sacred Intimacy with Adam MacLean appeared first on Queer Theology.

This episode is filled with so much good stuff and we’re excited for you to dive in. We have a listener question from Bella about how to talk about your faith without making other people uncomfortable. How do we disconnect sharing our faith from some people’s ideas about evangelising people. We also queer this week’s passage from 1 Peter 2:2-10. We talk about what it means and feels like to be nourished by God’s word and how the experience of queerness and transness can be a touchpoint for the entire church. So stay tuned and enjoy this episode.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Brian talks about learning Danish and cooking 
• Fr. Shay talks about cooking monstastic soups 
• Shout out to a new Patreon supporter 
• A question from Bella about how to talk about your faith
• Fr. Shay talks about the pressure to evangelize that he grew up with 
• Brian shares about how progressive folks sometime move too far in the other direction
• Fr. Shay talks about disconnecting sharing from conversion 
• Invitation to Sanctuary Collective 
• We queer a text from 1 Peter 2:2-10 
• Brian talks about the joy of being nourished by God’s Word 
• Fr. Shay talks about what it means to taste that the Lord is good 
• Brian delves into the power of learning to trust your body 
• Fr. Shay talks about the power of those rejected to build something incredible 

Resources:. 

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Throwback: Queerness Is A Cornerstone appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• Pride Month is celebrated globally, creating a sense of connection among queer individuals.
• Churches should actively participate in Pride events to show support for the LGBTQ community.
• Involvement should be led by queer and trans individuals within the church community.
• Churches must avoid centering themselves and instead focus on the needs of the queer community.
• Aesthetic presentation at Pride events matters; churches should invest in their displays.
• Service and support should be prioritized over recruitment at Pride events.
• Churches can provide tangible support, such as water stations for marchers.
• Engagement with the queer community should extend beyond Pride Month.
• Ongoing education and training are essential for creating inclusive church environments.
• Churches should explore diverse ways to incorporate queer culture into their programming.

Chapters

(00:56) Churches and Their Role in Pride Events

(04:00) Guiding Principles for Religious Groups at Pride

(07:08) Tangible Support and Service to the Queer Community

(10:02) Engaging with the Community Beyond Pride Month

(12:59) Creating Inclusive Spaces Year-Round

(15:56) Ongoing Education and Awareness for Inclusivity

(19:10) Broader Engagement with Queer Culture

(22:07) Building Lasting Relationships with the Community

Resources:. 

• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Tips for Churches at Pride appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• The distinction between good and bad people is not helpful.
• Everyone imagines themselves as the good person in their narrative.
• Understanding inherent goodness can help navigate complex relationships.
• Communities should create spaces for health and healing.
• Boundaries are essential for maintaining healthy relationships.
• It’s important to differentiate between beliefs and actions in community dynamics.
• Compassion for others can coexist with the need for boundaries.
• Self-reflection is crucial in understanding our impact on others.
• Navigating relationships with family can be particularly complex.
• Embracing the gray areas of life can lead to healthier communities.

Chapters

(00:00) Exploring Relationships and Polarization

(07:00) Understanding Goodness and Health

(13:57) Navigating Community and Boundaries

(20:51) Compassion and Complexity in Relationships

Resources:. 

• Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

The post Complicated Communities appeared first on Queer Theology.

Takeaways

• Pride Month embodies both joy and exclusion.
• Funding cuts to arts organizations threaten queer activism.
• The nonprofit industrial complex complicates funding for movements.
• Local and small-scale initiatives are crucial for sustainability.
• Joy can be a form of resistance against oppression.
• Celebration and activism can coexist meaningfully.
• Spirituality provides grounding for activism and community.
• Historical context enriches our understanding of current movements.
• Art and community are essential for resilience.
• Collective joy fuels the fight for justice.

Highlights:

(02:25) The Impact of Funding Cuts on Arts and Activism

(05:41) The Complexity of Funding Movements

(08:02) Balancing Joy and Resistance in Activism

(12:45) The Dual Nature of Pride: Celebration vs. Resistance

(16:18) Spirituality and Activism: Finding Balance

Resources:. 

• Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

00:00:54

That like, for many of us, pride month is a time of joy and Celebration and inclusion and sort of like festivities and partying. It’s also true that for many of us, pride is a place where we have felt excluded or unsafe or unseen for. It’s also true that like corporations have been sort of throwing money at Pride to sort of use the LGB, the LGBTQ community as consumers and to sort of get us to buy their business. And maybe there’s this sort of pinkwashing and corporate washing of pride that’s like not great. It’s also true that lots of corporations pulling out all their support from L-G-B-T-Q people and organizations is not a great sign.

00:01:38

It’s also true that Pride got its start over 50 years ago as a remembrance of the Stonewall Rebellion uprising. It’s a protest march. So there’s like this history of, of resistance that is part of pride. It’s also true that pride oftentimes features artists and musicians and creative types of all sorts that like come together to create beautiful political soothing, subversive, entertaining art. And that was all sort of like swirling around in our heads as we’re like getting ready to head into pride month and thinking about like, what does Pride Month mean now this year in 2025 with everything we’ve got going on in our local lives, in the USA globally with the arts, with the police, with the government, with immigration, like, it all just feels like so like ripe.

00:02:38

And so we’re, we don’t have an outline today. We’re just gonna dive in. And so, so sheiks we’re like, where’s your like, head out? Like what are you excited about? Worried about holding onto, like as we head into Pride month? Yeah, yeah. You know, as you were talking about artists, I, I was thinking a lot about all of the cancellation of the NEA grants, which happened, you know, yeah, a little, little close to a month ago as, as this is coming out, but which as we’re recording is very fresh. I’m on the board of an arts organization that lost their funding.

00:03:20

Another organization that has been a huge support to me in the past lost their funding two weeks before the conference that it was supposed to fund began. And it’s just like, you know, this is money that was promised to these organizations. So they planned their budgets around it and they’ve been doing their programming and now, you know, all of that is in question. And lots and lots of these organizations are, are supporting queer and trans folks. Some of them are specifically and explicitly queer and trans led. And so, you know, that’s, that’s really concerning. And, and there’s this kind of narrative, I think in some of these organizations of like, well, donors will step up and, and fill that gap.

00:04:09

And, and for many of these organizations, I do think that that is true. That, right? Like individual donors will step up and and close the gap. And also that’s complicated, right? Because what if you’re a scrappy queer tramp organization that doesn’t have donors that can step up and write thousands upon thousands of dollar checks, like, then what do you do? And I think that that is always the complicated nature of philanthropy. Yeah. And it’s also right, the complicated nature of grant making where we can see a granting organizations quote unquote priorities change in this case with a message that was clearly written by AI and is incomprehensible and coming from the government.

00:04:57

But, you know, we’ve seen this in, in other places in the, in the past even with corporate sponsorships where for a long time, target, for instance, really cared about education and then Target stopped caring about education and all of these organizations like went sideways. Anyway. So I thinking about all of that, but it, it, the thing that is underneath all of that is like, how do we fund the movements that allow us to do the things that a, make life worth living? Like I think that art and artists are what, what make life interesting, but also like how do we fund, for lack of a better word, the revolution, right?

00:05:37

And it’s, and it’s not, it, it’s not target, right? Target, target, the revolution will not be funded by Target and Bezos and et cetera, et cetera. So like thinking through, which Also feels like a very, sorry, which also feels like a very Christian early Christian question, right? Of like, yes, this like scrappy early church movement. I’m thinking about like doing sort of revolutionary subversive work and like how do, like how do they keep it going and fund the people who are sort of not working at fisherman because they’re working, doing, being community organizers. Yeah. Which, you know, as, and as you were talking about, right? I was also thinking about like the early Christian movement and how it did start as a protest movement and how that too, in, in many ways, like pride got commodified and became corporately funded and became organized in a way that Right, in some ways has been really helpful and useful and in other ways has really like taken, taken the wind out of the sails of the movement.

00:06:40

And I think that that is, that’s so complex and it’s so complicated, right? Because there, there are ways in which churches as organizations or as denominations have been able to do really cool things because they banded together and they funded really cool things, right? Like organizations that have built affordable housing or created food pantries or whatever. And also like that is complex as well. I, I’ve been thinking a lot. I, I read Dean Spade has this really great small book on mutual aid, and one of the things that I really appreciated in that book is that he talks a lot about how, he talks a lot about like how in some ways dangerous the nonprofit industrial complex is.

00:07:33

But his big takeaway is that it, we have to be thinking more small and more locally. And I think that that is one of the things that is, that is really on my mind and heart as we think about all of this, right? Like Ashley was saying the other day, like, yeah, we’re gonna need a lot more artists who can just like, create and make things where they are and it’ll be scrappy and it’ll be messy and it’ll be in found spaces. And and a friend of ours at the table was like, yeah, and, and no one’s gonna get paid for that. Like, we’re going backwards. And it’s like, yeah, you know what, probably yes. And that is also I think, yeah, organizing, right?

00:08:15

Like the, the professionalization of everything where we have to get paid to do, to show up is like, I think a problem. And one of the, the things that we’re really gonna have to like figure out moving forward. So those are some of my initial messy thoughts. Does that spark anything for you? Yeah, I think all of that sparks something in me, you know, And I I I think to get a little personal, like we feel that tension here at this work we do@cardiology.com, right? Where it’s like The time that we spend on this project is like time that we can’t be spending, like earning a living elsewhere, but also, like, we also can’t always count on or trust or expect to be able to earn like a full living from this work.

00:09:03

And so we’re constantly working multiple jobs in addition to the work that we do here to make ends meet. And so sort of like scrapping it together And I would like, I would love for this to be like my day job, right? Like that would be Yeah, fantastic. Like, and also it’s like not currently, And I, you can also see like the, the, the, the times in which we’re like more supported by the people who listen to the podcast or consume our resources or use our resources at their churches or buy our books or whatever. Like the more, the more like the more we’re able, the more time we’re then able to spend here doing this work. And in the times where for whatever reasons, like we get less support from the community that, that, that’s okay.

00:09:46

There’s like no judgment on that, but like it also then means we have to spend more time doing other types of work, which then like pulls us away from this work. And so there’s this sort of like, like, yes. And like, it’s like maybe like not a bad thing, quote unquote, like that not everything is professionalized. Like, and also it does mean there’s just like less time to do stuff and sometimes like less quality or to, to your point, like less reach. Like there is something about like an economy of scale that like bigger organizations or groups of people, collectives are able to accomplish more sometimes than because there’s just like less redundancies. It’s like, how do you That’s true. But also we, we don’t wanna dehumanize everything and make it like the most efficient thing possible Right.

00:10:28

And gonna be responsive to local needs. So I like, so that’s sort of like, yeah. So I’m just like, I, yeah, I feel all of that. And I, And I feel like that that is also like attention with clergy too, right? There there is, yeah. There was this push for a while of like, well, clergy shouldn’t be making their money from the church because if they are being paid by the church, A they like can’t be prophetic in the way that they can if like, like they weren’t relying on the church for their income or like b churches could do more if they weren’t having to pay insurance and retirement packages and full-time, you know, salaries for clergy. Yeah. But then the, the trade off of that is like, yes, but then if your pastor is working a nine to five and you have an emergency, they can’t just like leave their nine to five to come be at the hospital with you.

00:11:17

Right? Yeah. Or like if they have to work, you know, Sunday and prep a sermon and they also have to work 40 hours a week, like you’re gonna get the sermon that they can write in their evenings and weekends. Right? Like it’s just a different Yeah. Type of thing. And that I, I think for some people that works, for some communities that work, but I think also like to your point about scale, like that doesn’t work for everyone and it, and, and or the people whom it does work for, like have they, they have other privileges, right? Like it can’t probably work for the mom of three kids, especially not for a single mom of three kids, right?

00:12:03

It’s probably not gonna work for the trans person with no family support, right? Like it’s, we expect that there will be other things in place and that just gets really, really complicated. Yeah. It just, it gets to it like when art or ministry like isn’t funded, it just makes it so that rich people and people with like generational wealth are the ones that have the easiest time at doing those things. And so then, then also then like informs the art that gets created in the ministries that get started and like, you know, we see the terrible, terrible evangelicals are able to like run Super Bowl ads, right?

00:12:44

And yeah, and like the, the like trans lifeline is not because like of funding priorities, right? So that’s all. Yep, yep, yep, yep. I’m also just like sort of thinking about like the tension between like pride as like resistance and pride as Celebration. And I don’t think that they actually, like those two things are like necessarily opposites. Yeah. I think that especially for queer people, I think like queer, like one of the beauties of queerness right? Is that we sort of like, we turn like oppression into camp and we like dance and we like laugh at like as we organize and resist and like the Celebration sometimes Celebration I think like can also be a form of resistance in and of itself to say like, yeah, like life is hard.

00:13:40

Like, and also you’re like, not gonna steal my joy. And, And I, And I think like, so I think it comes down to like, a lot of it is like intentionality, right? Because like you can sort of have like a frivolous celebratory, let’s all just get drunk all month long go to brunches and this amazing, right? And like, it that’s like, not necessarily like resistible, but like if you can sort of like celebrate, keep your eyes wide open at, at, at the horrors that we’re sort of living through. Like, and also choose not to, not to turn away from that and hide from that, but just sort of like to dance in defiance of that feels important. And then also like how do you like organize such that like, it’s not just Celebration that you’re also like taking it into action outside of the dance floor.

00:14:29

I’m like thinking about like, right, right now the scene, I think it was in a movie, but like in the like eighties I presume, or like maybe the nineties, like a gay men health crisis would host like these like big fundraisers to like support people living with hiv aids like in the, like the gay clubs, the gay bars. And so places where like they used to just sort of like drink and dance and had night away they were still drinking and dancing the night away, but now they were raising money to get food or medication or they were like organizing information sessions outta these like same like dance halls and gay bars. And so like, it feels like, like I want it to be like a yes and of like, I don’t, it doesn’t, if we, if we like, if we stop, if we erase all of the joy from our lives, there’s like no point in living and they’ve already won.

00:15:17

Right. And also like if we, if we just sort of tune out and try and drown our sorrows and get drunk and only dance the night away, like things will just continue to get worse for us until we all die. And so like, we, like it can’t be either of those extremes. And so I’m, I’m thinking a lot about like, how do I cultivate joy while like that that turns into like resilience that like fuels the resistance as opposed to like either burning myself out with hardness and sadness or just sort of like sticking my head in the sand. And so like I’m, that’s sort of like the energy that I’m trying to bring into pride 2025 of like dance in the streets and like march in the streets and like throw dinner parties with your friends and also like host mutual aid, like groups with your friends and get to know your neighbors so that you can like bring them food when they need them.

00:16:11

And also like, so you can talk to ’em about local citywide elections, you know, it’s, it’s like, it’s all, it feels all swirling together and sometimes like easier said than done. Yeah. It it that I feel like we also talked about those exact same things when we talked about worship and, and ritual, right? That like, it’s the same thing of like if you’re, if your worship and your engagement with spiritual practice is just about comfort and safety and warmth, then like you’re missing something really, really crucial. But also if it’s always about like ex extend yourself and go, go, go and resistance and resistance and resistance, like you, you, that’s not like not sustainable for the long term.

00:16:55

You need some fuel there. And so that there, there’s something in the, like in the mix of being able to find comfort and peace and safety and grounding in your spiritual practice. That is the thing that like connects you to the world and inspires you to go out and to do things and take, engage in justice work. And so like, you know, I think that these connections, like all of the connections that we talk about in queerness, like this is, I think this is also like why faith? Why this, this intersection between faith and queerness is like, yeah, so important and so special because like it gives us a grounding to talk about these things and, and it gives us an even an even deeper history to tap into right there, there is a history in both of, in both of these spaces, but like we might miss that history and tapping into that history if we’re just thinking about the here and now.

00:17:53

Yeah. And you know, I’m, I was also just struck right now about like, about whether it’s like joy or Celebration or partying, whether it’s pride or whether it’s worship. Like it’s not just like, so that we don’t burn out and are able to like keep doing their work. I think that there’s also like a spiritual element here that that, that you’re keying into, like Christians might call it like the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. Like Jews might call it like the world’s of come Ola Haba, right? Like that like there are these sort of like glimpses of what is like not yet fully here, but like in this moment we could see like how it could be and it like reminds us of like, oh yes, like another way is possible. Like we can do more of this.

00:18:34

Like, this is worth fighting to protect and nurture and kindle because like this little thing that we’re seeing here, whether it’s like, I don’t know, man, like I wish people could go back in time and go to the Philadelphia Transgender Health Conference in like 2011, right? Like, that felt like a vision of a world, of the world to come that was like worth like fighting and protecting, protecting or like a really like, like subversive inspiring like drag show that like makes you see the world in a new way or like a powerful sermon or just like that feeling of community that you feel and you’re like with your like queer chosen family, right? Like over a shared meal. There’s like these like moments where you’re like, oh, like this is, like, this was what, like makes worth life worth living And I want everyone to experience this and how can we sort of like fight for this specific thing and also continue to like, make it bigger and more widespread so that like everyone gets a taste of it.